Guest 1334- Registered: 7 Sep 2014
- Posts: 30
Good morning. Sheila you are entitled to your opinion as are 3500 (barring very few, still collecting though). The fact you find the permanent flying of the flag mundane is a sad statement for anybody to make. You live with that, there are many who would be offended by that crass sentiment. Say it to the face of any veteran, relative of a dead soldier, be that wife, mother, son, father, or anything else, those still willing to give their all and see how they react to your personal sentiment. HM The Queen would be totally dismayed by the total lack of patriotic support of our war memorial flag, having many relatives in the forces. Maybe it is time that this was highlighted to HRH. Do not apologises to me Sheila, you need to do that to those who thought you were put in your position to represent them. I did not nor would I ever vote for some of those who's little gang you belong to. You have forgotten what you are supposed to do as councillors. Please read your Code of Conduct again and encourage your gang to do the same. Dover people have had enough! You lot have paraded like make believe superior beings that owe nothing to the rabble. You are all so wrong. We have found our voice again and will keep reminding all of you to do your job, drop the pretence of my poo does not stink and is this my best side for the next photo and try to gain the respect you have all lost, barring a few who have been true to the honour bestowed to you all by the electorate. The general feeling is : you are surplus to requirement. The invitation to come and stand next to me to give your opinion still stands. See you all there?
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Guest 767- Registered: 30 Aug 2012
- Posts: 458
May I just point out that the Union flag flown at the Castle is flown 24/7, on the direction of the home office. The Castle is a registerd Flag station for the Nation and as such must fly a union flag from the highest point on site, normally this is the flag turret on the roof of the keep,however should this not be avalable then the flag can be flown from the arsenal tower (part of palace gate), then from the church mast and finally from the roof of the port war signal station. Staff on duty in the keep look after the flag on a day to day basis and have a number of differing sized flags which are flown according to the weather conditions on the day. If EH can do it, and do it well, then surely our councils can too.
The flag flown from Constablestower is either the deputy constables flag, or rarely, that of the Constable,Lord Boyce.
Guest 1266- Registered: 8 May 2014
- Posts: 381
"please, please, please, do not insult the fallen by flying it throughout the night." Neil Wiggins
What a ridiculous and ignorant thing to write.
Jack of Hearts
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
The link I posted in #17 from The Flag Institute on flag protocol in the UK shows the flag can be flown though-out the night but should be illuminated.
Neil and Phil are describing the difference between onshore and offshore protocols, with the offshore protocols being embedded in maritime law - get it wrong in some countries and you could be in big trouble.
Guest 652- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 595
Augusta, we all have a wish list of what we would like in our town, but we can't just go into the council and demand this is what I and the people want, and get it straight away, it has to go through channels and it all takes time, it also has to be budgeted for, the budget for this year was set last year, so perhaps little money left in pot, if what you want is passed then it would have to be budgeted for, and then when funds are found, then it has to make sure it can be funded and looked after for the next few years
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Jack, not ridiculous or ignorant in the slightest. My Dad served in the army, as did my Grandfather in the Marines and his father before him, also in the Marines. I served at sea when I was somewhat younger. My Dad was an absolute stickler on flag protocol, always said how lazy it was to leave a flag flapping at night.
Guest 1266- Registered: 8 May 2014
- Posts: 381
Neil you are talking rubbish. I was stationed at Camp Bastion as a medic and the Union Flag was proudly flown during the day and at night.
Jack of Hearts
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Jack, my Father DID always say how lazy it was to leave a flag flapping at night, the part of flag protocol that says it is ok to fly a flag at night so long as it is properly illuminated IS a modern addendum. My forebears DID all serve in the armed forces. So nothing in what I've said is rubbish or untrue. In conflict zones and in times of war, protocol is sometimes laid aside, but as civilians in a land at peace, we have no excuse not to properly honour the flag and the fallen by making the effort required to do so. There is no need to insult another person's point of view, I have not insulted yours or you. I personally do not agree that it is appropriate or respectful to fly the flag at night, I am of the view that it should go up at sunrise and come down at sunset.
I am of the view that if people want a flag at the memorial on every day of the year, then the proper way to do it is to do it properly and respectfully with flag raising at dawn and lowering at sunset. What has been suggested so far seems to me to be less than respectful and honouring - stick the flag on the pole and leave it there day and night no effort to demonstrate respect and honour in that and I thought the whole point of having a flag by the memorial was to demonstrate physically what I am sure we all feel with regard to the honoured dead.
Guest 1334- Registered: 7 Sep 2014
- Posts: 30
Sheila the only costs are a flagpole and spotlights. Plus planning permission. Less than a total of £2000. I have offered to pay for the pole and I am sure that I could find you local professionals who would be willing to carry out the work at cost, as would any college have been willing to design your new website rather than vote to spend £14000 of our money on it, or other stuff that I am sure could have been obtained cheaper. Councillors get £1000 each to spend as they wish. Maybe some would be willing to make a donation to the costs of the flagpole etc. I am happy to pay for the lot if that is what it takes. The mayor raised the subject of costs to raise and lower the flag. There are many who would volunteer to do that job on a rota, I am 1 of those. Or as it used to be, the first one in and the last one out get that honour. I personally have no preference in relation to the flag flying at night but a letter I received from Graham Bartram, who had contacted me on behalf of Admiral the Lord Boyce stated : the Union flag can fly from any location in UK at any time. It can be flown at night but we would prefer that it is spotlit in these circumstances. It would be most appropriate for the flag to fly 24hrs a day at a war memorial and this is exactly what happens at UK's main war memorial, the Cenotaph in Whitehall. I will contact Dover town council, suggesting they invest in a flagpole and either decide to raise and lower the flag daily or install a spotlight". Admiral the Lord Boyce told me personally on Regatta day that he fully supported me in my efforts to fly the flag at all times. This information was passed on to DTC via their fb page immediately so a considerable number of weeks ago. To date not 1 person has said the flagpole will be erected indeed, its suggestion is met with hostility from you and the mayor Sheila as all were able to witness at the meeting on 3 September. I am aware there was a council meeting last night. Did anybody come back with any response? I asked for it in writing of each and every councillor present as it was on the notes handed to everybody together with the list of 9 councillors who were for the flagpole. I have also sent questions to DTC days ago but not received a reply. The main one for me, that I am sure you will be able to answer being" when was the 3 minute rule last applied at a DTC meeting?" It is not confidential information and could be found in the minutes. Minutes were taken when Ann and I met up with the mayor together with the person chairing the meeting, Allison Burton so proper council meetings surely must have the minutes taken. For information, another 156 signatures have been collected in 3 days of about 1 to 2 hrs just standing by the memorial.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Guest 937- Registered: 12 May 2013
- Posts: 145
I am saddened that Augusta is getting so much stick for trying to do the decent thing. Whilst standing talking to her for just five minutes this morning whilst she was obtaining even more signatures, I was really shocked to see the disrespect that parents with young children had for the town's Memorial to it's fallen. Allowing them to use it as a play area with no attempt to remove them or try to explain it was 'special'. The grass is rarely in a good state, I twice, in the summer, went into the DTC office to complain about the neglect. So if Neil Wiggins is going to talk about respect and honour and tatty flags, perhaps the finger should be pointed at DTC first before trying to belittle Augusta Pearson's efforts.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I don't think that Neil was trying to belittle anyone, in fact the reverse was the case - furthermore i didn't see Augusta getting more stick that she dished out, that is the way with forums.
Guest 652- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 595
Augusta, please get your facts right regarding the meeting on the 3rd Sept I did not say anything at that meeting, so where you say I was hostile to you I do not know. Also regarding the £1000 pound a councillor gets, they can not spend it willy nilly, as you seem to think, and regarding the meeting on Tuesday nothing was said about the flag pole as it does not come under that committee, the council does not just have a flag pole to discuss, there are other issues to deal with. If eventually a flag pole is erected then money has to be set aside for its upkeep in the future, if ever it is vandalised then the money must be there to replace or repair, the same that is done to the fountain, when some morons fill it with soap.
Thank you Pauline for highlighting what I have been saying all along, that the disrespect parents with young children had for the war memorial and its fallen, this also applies to some adults, with their beer cans and the pulling up of the plants around the memorial no respect whatsoever
Guest 1334- Registered: 7 Sep 2014
- Posts: 30
Please do not worry about me getting stick. 33 years sat in just about every court going has taught me to have frank exchanges of opinions without getting upset. Everybody is entitled to their opinion. Some have more to loose than others when they express them. The daily support I get from people when I collect signatures is absolutely strengthening and has made me more resolved than ever to keep going. I have been asked to pick up the petition the DE started to get rid of DTC by so many people that it amazes me. Although the option of a referendum is always there if the electorate so decide to exercise that right and the procedure is quite simple. But like you said Sheila May will tell. Read the papers out today and the letters. They will cut all this " you said, I said, you did, I didn't" out. I am completely determined not to let those 3500 plus who signed the petition down and will keep going. By the way, is it realy necessary to call in a surveyor to have a visualisation exercise? Any computer would have afforded that possibility, put a photo of the statue and building on the screen, superimpose a flag....., simple and so much cheaper for the taxpayer and of course, less to take out of the remaining budget. I do sincerely hope that having bought all those ipads there will be serious savings on postal costs that can be shown in the next set of accounts. Time will tell on so many things, especially elections.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Dover town councillors have not been issued with I pads Augusta.
To avoid any confusion a "visualisation exercise" translates into the Queen's English as "taking a butchers", hope that clarifies things.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
Augusta a council will always spend vast amounts of money and call in an expect that way they can pass the buck if a plan goes pear shaped, we all know it will never ever be the council or councillors fault.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 1334- Registered: 7 Sep 2014
- Posts: 30
Hi Howard . Yes that topic was covered on fb, thank you though. Whenever any professional is involved, it will cost money. Putting it on a computer with superimposed flag gives everybody" a butchers" lol.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Guest 1334- Registered: 7 Sep 2014
- Posts: 30
I meant to say that in the time I was stood by the memorial today, 6 children ran up to the memorial. Two of those climbed on to it with the parents fully aware and not stopping them for their own safety, never mind to show respect to a memorial. 4 adults used the path that touches the statue in the grassed area as a shortcut and a lady did her daily feeding of the birds, despite the sign not to feed them. Just wondered if a chain hooked up at either end of that path would stop that " trespassing". I have lost count of the times I have asked people politely not to let children climb onto the statue only to be stared at or told to f off. Just can't argue with that level of brain power.
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
The Dover Memorial is very good as it is been that way from day one.
As a ex Dover town cllr and I was also in the army for some years a still a member of the Royal British Legion.
It is well know that I have never got on with the Town council but it was the council that had the Memorial clean up also it was them who add names to it each year.When there is a service at the Memorial the flags come out to show the public that the services held there are special if the flag was there all the time the service would look like it was just a general one.
Dover has the flag hanging from the Castle each day all can see that.
Are you doing this Mrs Augusta just to get headlines,?I for one do not think so but it is time you moved away from this as a Legion member and ex Army I am please to just see the War Memorial as it is clean and the small garden is looking nice alot better then years ago before the Town Council took over the care of it.
So please all you are doing is upseting alot of the public and ex services so end it please.
If you wish to help the ex services and the public of Dover do it in the best way try and get a Dover BRANCH of the British Legion open again in doing that you will get alot more support from both the public and council and the main thing is that you would get the Dover Royal British Legion flag out showing to the public again.
At this time it is in a store in Maidstone and can not be seen again till a Dover Branch is up and running again .
I am a member of the Downs Branch at Deal along with other Dover members because we do not have our own Branch or flag.
End.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I am sorry but I think this is going on to long the Dover war memorial has been standing without a flag from day one.I was a town cllr at one time and it is well know that we do not see eye to eye but in this case I think they are right.
I am ex Army from the 1950s and 1960s still a member of the Royal British Legion Downs Branch at Deal.
I f it had not been for the Town council taking over the roll of looking after the War Memorial and the small garden it would not look so nice as it does now.
We already have the flag flying from the Castle each day.
Mrs Augusta sorry but it is time you drop all this it is upseting members both from the public and both councils.
We have special service each year at the memorial when all flags are there if we have the union Jack flying there all the time it would make the service we hold there just like the other ones.
I do not think you re doing it just to get headlines ?so please stop it.
The real fight you should take on is trying to get a Branch of the Royal British Legion open again in Dover so we as members cain can come back to our home town at this very time the Flag of the Dover Branch of the Legion is hanging it a store in Maidstone it can not come back to Dover till we have a branch up and running.In doing that you will get both the support of the D.D.C. and the D.T.C. + the public and members of the legion.
As for a chain across the path is also wrong the public need to go up to it and see the names on it. by putting a chain there us older one would trip over it.
Also it is the town council that add names to the memorial every 3years.
So please again stop what you re doing it is upseting to some Dover is also my home town lived here all my 72 years apart from my army services and working away.Thank you.
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,983
I agree with Vic.The memorial is kept well,very unusual in design.Flag will detract from the design.I also agree effort should be put into forming a Dover Branch of the British Legion.Its because we do not have a Dover branch that events cannot be held.
I'm going to a service at St Mary's on Sunday to recall the end of shelling in Dover ,Sandwich on Monday as it's Battle of Britain weekend and later this month a small event will be held in Dover to recall where the last shell fell in Dover .
I'm sure those who died would not appreciate all the fuss that has been made.They died that we could be free.Its because we are free that people can say the most awful things on the media.
It amazing me the comments that are made .
The flag issue has become an attack on the Town Mayor.Its time someone stepped in and says enough is enough.
The flag will be flown from the Dover Town.Hall
Some of the effort put into this campaign could be used to raise money for those who have been injured in current conflicts.
h
Help the Heroes springs to mind.Sending parcels to our serving personnel.I know a lady who organises the sending of countless parcels.Help for today.We recall those who died their names are on the memorial