Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I think at this point it would be better to question where the 400 million pounds would come from. As private investors, anyone should show transparency as to the origins of their money.
For example, Libyan assets have been frozen. Many countries in the world do not have the same idea of democracy as the West has, and it seems that any such government can be deemed ready to fall at a moment's notice.
The escalation of events in Libya should be a warning to us that we had better get the magnifying glass out and demand that the people's port trust show where the proposed borrowed 400 million pounds is supposed to come from.
If tomorrow a war broke out in China, I could envisage people claiming how "we must go in and impose democracy", even though today no-one would dream of haranguing China.
Yesterday (last month at any rate), Libya was a country trading with the West with reciprocal investments on the part of investors, with the West investing in Libyan infrastructure and Libya investing in western infrastructure.
Now it's: they are enemies!
Tomorrow, any country in the GULf region, according to this theory, could be "an undemocratic and oppressive regime". with assets being frozen.
So, again, I think at this point the p/p should first show our Country where the proposed private money is coming from, from which country, from which bank account.
Because surely, no-one believes that 400 million pounds are the personal savings of two investors living in the Deal-Sandwich area!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alexander - this has been explained to you many times. No-one has suggest it is the 'personal savings of two investors'.
The money is raised on the money markets as debt bonds.
The City have already provided advice that this would be treated as 'investment grade' in other words low risk by which investors will sacrifice a high return for capital security.
Investment companies that buy such bonds will include insurance companies and investment grade Mutual Funds. I have no doubt that these bonds will end up being packaged up in some of the funds that I recommend to clients run by companies like Invesco Perpetual and Henderson.
All your diatribe about China, Libya etc is irrelivant.
Are you deliberately being obtuse and ignoring what has previously been explained or do you really not understand what has been said to you?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Ah no, Barry!
You yourself have repeadedly explained to us all how money that is invested in banks, in shares, bonds, bunds and equities, hedge-funds, lawns and gardens, all comes from a mish-mash of investment from all over the world.
I have good reason to believe that Libyan money is invested in British banks, that these assets are frozen or will be frozen, hence I demand that p/p look into where their proposed borrowed funds come from.
Reading comments from other people posted on news-sites, as I often do, I have convinced myself that a large sector of public opinion is making comparisons to how some western government leaders are using one set of hypocritical measures with some Gulf states, and another set of measures with Libya.
In Saudi Arabia, the government has ordered, weeks ago, that anyone attempting to demonstrate publicly will be whipped and imprisoned!
I must assume that before long, people will be shouting for Saudi and Bahraini investments and assets to be frozen.
There is a good case here to ask the p/p to re-think their policies, and to open up the books and inspect - and reveal - the origtins of any money they intend to borrow. Our Port cannot be jeopardised to any obscure borrowing-scheme, and even less so now that our Country is going into another war, and where massive investments from countries that do not have a form of democracy as the West has, are liable to be frozen, following the measure established by the British Government in regards to Libya.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alexander - do rejoin the real world. You can find confirmation of all kinds of weird, strange and downright untrue things on the web as well as some things that may be accurate but that does not make it relevent to the People's Port. By the way, how is Elvis these days?
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Additionally such bonds are freely tradeable and will pass through many hands before they mature. Tracking ultimate beneficial ownership of every bond is impossible and also pointless.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Quite true Peter.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Barry I think it is time you stoped
being rude to members just because they do not agree with you.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
LOL Vic - its nothing to do with disagreement or different views. It is to do with the sheer absurdity of what is being said and the refusal to read and understand what others try to explain. If it is rude to point this out and not to take such absurdity seriously then fair enough.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Peter/Howard.
I am still waiting for proof or facts relating to why you are stating the third option is dead?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
How about these then GaryC...
Facing up to the real world and the facts backed up by logic and common sense.
That should be enough for anybody.
But you could also cite the stated aim of the coalition to obtain cash from the sale of these and other state assets to help deal with the Brown legacy.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
The Government will probably think very carefully before accepting any money of unclear origin, as it may come from accounts belonging to governments who promise that any demonstartor will be wipped and improsoned, but currently hold tens - if not hundreds - of billions of pounds in investments in Britain and Europe.
A big outcry has arisen because some university in Britain accepted funds from Mr. Gedaffi. At the time it was perfectly alright, but as soon as Mr. Gedaffi was deemed not in line with western-style democracy, it became a scandal.
One could almost see the university hradmaster being publicly wipped (not literally)! Barry, with your interventionist policies on other threads, you have opened a can of worms, and now you will see where it leads to!
I won't harp on this subject now, I've made the point, but once evidence comes up, you can take it for granted that the Government will think very seriously about it. You cannot ride two different horses at the same time, Barry, preaching oe thing on one thread, and then telling us all on another that we do not have to bother where borrowed money would come from.
Barry, the Government won't take this lightly, and they are the people who will ultimately consider what decision should be taken regards any money-borrowing of unclear origin.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
You were not, nor will you be, included in my posts, you could not answer a straight question if you tried. I am sure you will be pleased that i will not respond to you in anyway on this forum again.
I joined this forum with an open mind, hoping to broaden my outlook and to listen and learn from all forumites. You have nothing to offer me on any level. Thats it.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Here is a nice little guide to credit bonds
http://www.library.illinois.edu/bel/bonds/blmbrg3.html - perhaps certain people might like to read it to aid their understanding?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Gary
The option of the port remaining a Trust Port is not dead but it is highly unlikely in my opinion. Why do I think this? As others have pointed out whilst the Ports Act 1991
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1991/52/contents remains in existence the opportunity for Port Management Boards to sell the Trust Port is ever in the background and as such the long term likelihood of it remaining in public hands is low; particularly in the current climate. Further the Modernising Trust Ports scheme
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/shippingports/ports/trust/goodgovernancesecondedition.pdf appears to have at its heart the premise of selling ports. Clearly given the current crisis and the fact that the Minister for Transport did not rule DHBs approach to sell the port out at the earliest opportunity suggests that the government is minded to sell.
Of course as you suggest there are British Port operators who might be interested in acquiring the Port under the DHB proposals, though given the current economic climate I am unsure as to the viability of them doing so. The inference from the pronouncements of the DHB suggest that they do not see this as a viable option and are lining up their golden parachutes with a foreign entity.
I like you and others would like the port to remain in some form of public ownership, but do not imagine that the only option to achieve this is via the state (i.e. remaining a Trust Port). There are other options to public ownership such as the proposal by the DPPT of an Industrial and Provident Society, or alternatively a Community Interest Company might be used as a similar public ownership vehicle. The real difference between the first one and the latter two is that with the latter ones ownership is local and it is local people who will decide on the major strategic decisions affecting the port; something I whole heartedly support.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Ross
Thanks for the link. I'm sure Vic will now digest the report and have a clearer understanding.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Marek, I am surprised. You are not normally given to such biting sarcasm.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Thank you Ross, you are a good and articulate advocate. As you know I am too close to the issue to be taken seriously by the conspiracy theorists.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barryw,elvis is working in a shop near you.dont knock it some people think elvis a god,of what i dont know.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Gary, I long ago gave up asking P/p advocates why they keep claiming there is no third option. It's pointless, they won't give a coherent reply.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
And back in the real world, could I remind everyone that this referendum is on Wednesday 23rd March (less than a week away). Voting is between 4:00 pm and 9:00 pm in your usual polling stations. You will not need a polling card as your name can be checked off of the electoral roll.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour