howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
answered you own question alex.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Is this what you mean, Howard?:
"it is now for the board to consider all the available options for the long term future of the port"
In this case, we would have to ask DHB what their future available options are.
But one interesting other point in the DfT letter today, was that had the transfer scheme been accepted, then DPPT would have been able to make their offer for the Port
But it does not appear that the Port would have been offered to them alone.
Word for word from DfT:
"Also of course DHB's own transfer scheme was being considered at that time, which, if it had been approved, would have given DPPT an opportunity to make an offer for the port as part of the sale process."
This leads me to believe that with the rejection of the DHB bid, the peoples port offer has no chance of being taken into consideration.
Guest 868- Registered: 25 Jan 2013
- Posts: 490
Copy and paste the letter as a whole and I might take some interest it, and perhaps people will take you seriously....
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
OK, Paul, I've omitted only the names of the people who received my letter and to whom it was passed on to for the reply to be made.
Hopefully it will become evident that the DHB privatisation bid would have had to be accepted by the Decision Minister in order for DPPT and any other entitled person/company or whatever to make their offer to buy the Port of Dover.
Only if the DHB bid had been accepted, could this have been possible.
And that the DPPT offer to buy the Port in November 2010 was not taken into consideration, never was being considered, and that there is no other DPPT offer since that time.
Well here goes. make any conclusions you wish, and PLEASE remember, I have omitted only the names of the senders at the top and the bottom, and naught (0) else. And 0 has been added.
"....which she has passed to me to reply to.
The Government's position on the future of Dover Harbour was set out by the Maritime Minister, Stephen Hammond MP, following his visit to Dover on 30 January 2013 when he said:
"Dover Harbour Board has a new chair and I'm pleased to see them tackling the issues at hand. Following the Minister of State's decision before Christmas not to approve the Dover Harbour Board's transfer scheme that would have allowed privatisation, it is now for the board to consider all the available options for the long term future of the port' This remains the Government's position.
You asked about the status of Dover People's Port Trust (DPPT) proposals. As you may know, DPPT submitted an offer to the Government to purchase the port of Dover in November 2010. However, in response the Minister explained to DPPT that the Port of Dover was not an asset that belongs to the Government - it was (and remains) owned and operated by Dover Harbour Board (DHB). The Government was not therefore in a position to consider direct offers for the port. Also of course DHB's own transfer scheme was being considered at that time, which, if it had been approved, would have given DPPT an opportunity to make an offer for the port as part of the sale process. DPPT has not submitted any further offers for the port since November 2010, although they made representations to the Department on DHB's proposed transfer scheme (as summarised in the annex to the decision letter of 20 December 2012) and have also written on related issues.
Yours sincerely"
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
At last, we can all see that everything (except the rather strange conclusions you draw from the above info) is exactly as stated by me on numerous occasions and on the other threads, nothing that is not already in the public domain. DPPT continues to bring its original offer up to date with all the latest numbers, stakeholder and financial support for presentation without the encumbrance of government consideration of the last DHB proposals which have now been dealt with.
DPPT has had and will continue to have meetings with ministers and civil servants as previously stated by me. The DHB has been instructed to consider all the available options for the long term future of the port, big hint for them to do the right thing voluntarily, and if they don't, the Minister has the powers required to ensure that they do in the end do the right thing.
The DPPT offer was never rejected by Government, there is a difference between not being able to consider at that time due to prevailing circumstances and a rejection. The fact that the DPPT offer was not rejected and continued to have a major influence, even though it could not immediately be accepted, on the entire process around the DHB consultation is evidenced by the change in the criteria and in the decision letter itself. Now also in the fact that the conversation continues with Government to deliver the stated Government aims of achieving significant and enduring community influence over the future of the port and benefit from on going operations.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
"it was (and remains) owned and operated by Dover Harbour Board (DHB). "
This seems to defy your above post, Neil.
The above letter is in the public domain now, anyway. Only you seem to suggest, in defiance of the DfT's letter, that the people's port offer was not rejected.
But I'm leaving the case at this, having been finally informed by the DfT how things stand, in this letter that came today, and the one that came last week.
The objective of the thread has been achieved, and so I shan't be looking in anymore on this or the other thread on the Port of Dover.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Oddly, and having read and understood every word on every thread, you are the only person that has suggested the DPPT offer was rejected. None of my assertions run contrary to any communication from the DfT. Your quote does not defy my post, which did not dispute the current ownership of the port. The actual ownership of Trust Ports is a legal grey area - As the DHB is an independent statutory body and ownership of the port is vested with it, on the face of it the port is owned by the DHB. However, said ownership is not absolute, because, as we have all seen, the DHB must seek permission from the Nation, as represented by the Government of the day, if it wishes to make any major changes. Equally, the government of the day has powers under the 1964 Harbours Act, the 1991 Ports Act and the Public Bodies Act 2011 to require the DHB to change its ownership and governance as directed by the Secretary of State. So, whilst the assertion by the DfT that the DHB owns and operates the port is true, it is not the whole and absolute truth.
I am pleased that you will no longer post on this subject, perhaps at last, when real and new information on the continuing changes at the port is posted there can be a reasoned and linear discussion based on what has actually been written and said.
For my part, whatever purpose you may have had in mind for this thread, I hope that you continue to watch as the situation develops over the coming months and that you will take part in the next set of consultations (should the DHB choose the cooperative route), or make the appropriate representation to Parliament should the path to communitisation go the Parliamentary scrutiny route (should the DHB insist that there is only one way (its way) again).
Guest 868- Registered: 25 Jan 2013
- Posts: 490
Guest 868- Registered: 25 Jan 2013
- Posts: 490
Alexander D wrote:OK, Paul, I've omitted only the names of the people who received my letter and to whom it was passed on to for the reply to be made.
Hopefully it will become evident that the DHB privatisation bid would have had to be accepted by the Decision Minister in order for DPPT and any other entitled person/company or whatever to make their offer to buy the Port of Dover.
Only if the DHB bid had been accepted, could this have been possible.
And that the DPPT offer to buy the Port in November 2010 was not taken into consideration, never was being considered, and that there is no other DPPT offer since that time.
Well here goes. make any conclusions you wish, and PLEASE remember, I have omitted only the names of the senders at the top and the bottom, and naught (0) else. And 0 has been added.
"....which she has passed to me to reply to.
The Government's position on the future of Dover Harbour was set out by the Maritime Minister, Stephen Hammond MP, following his visit to Dover on 30 January 2013 when he said:
"Dover Harbour Board has a new chair and I'm pleased to see them tackling the issues at hand. Following the Minister of State's decision before Christmas not to approve the Dover Harbour Board's transfer scheme that would have allowed privatisation, it is now for the board to consider all the available options for the long term future of the port' This remains the Government's position.
You asked about the status of Dover People's Port Trust (DPPT) proposals. As you may know, DPPT submitted an offer to the Government to purchase the port of Dover in November 2010. However, in response the Minister explained to DPPT that the Port of Dover was not an asset that belongs to the Government - it was (and remains) owned and operated by Dover Harbour Board (DHB). The Government was not therefore in a position to consider direct offers for the port. Also of course DHB's own transfer scheme was being considered at that time, which, if it had been approved, would have given DPPT an opportunity to make an offer for the port as part of the sale process. DPPT has not submitted any further offers for the port since November 2010, although they made representations to the Department on DHB's proposed transfer scheme (as summarised in the annex to the decision letter of 20 December 2012) and have also written on related issues.
Yours sincerely"
See that wasn't difficult
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the ball is very clearly in d.h.b's port according to the letter, just up to them to present something acceptable to the department of transport.
i cannot remember when mr jenkins said that there were no further bids in the pipeline, was it before the meeting of the 30th january or after?
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
This was reported in Kent on Sunday today (but I can't find it online yet and don't know if it has been mentioned in the many threads going), relevant to Alex's proposal of a £50 per foreign lorry levy - come next April the largest foreign HGVs will be paying that for every week on UK roads.
The HGV Road User Levy Act Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Hi Ray, yes it has been mentioned on another thread as this was a policy agreed, after consultation, by Government in the middle of last year. The charge will actually be on every HGV, UK and foreign, so that the UK cannot be had up for a tax that acts as an inhibitor to trade (Road Tolling in the UK is not common place as it is on the Continent and the imposition of a new tax on HGV's for road use that specifically targeted foreign users would inevitably end in an EU comission ruling against it).
The Government makes this toll cost neutral for UK HGV owners by reducing the direct road tax that they pay.
The entire scheme is expected to raise £23.5m net per annum for the Treasury.
Guest 697- Registered: 13 Apr 2010
- Posts: 622
The government has today approved the Liverpool Waters regeneration project in central Liverpool. Led by the private, Peel Group, this is a good illustration of what can be achieved by private developers in investing in port and associated infrastructure. I wonder if we could have seen similar development in Dover had we been a little more accepting of change and the need to invest for the future? Of course, the "no campaign" always gains the headlines, but I for one, believe a major opportunity has been missed.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
not totally dead in the water kevin, we still wait for d.h.b. to make a bid more acceptable to the dft than their previous one.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Liverpool is an interesting case. DPPT has been watching carefully what has been going on there and there are certainly parallels to be drawn. Bear in mind though that Liverpool's population is nearly 20 times that of Dover and within 40 miles another 3 million in the Manchester conurbation.
Peel Group is backed by Saudi money.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 697- Registered: 13 Apr 2010
- Posts: 622
Agreed, Peter, we're talking a different size in Liverpool. But the issues remain the same - they are unlocking private capital to realise their ambitions. In the process, they'll be providing yet more competiton for Dover's cruise trade as the plans include a new cruise terminal. I don't have an issue with foreign investment if that's how we develop the port and in the process help to regenerate the town. It's clear cut for me, we either accept change and move with the times, or accept the status quo and see further decline.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I have no problem with foreign (ie non-Dovorian) participation but I do have an issue with remote control especially where the investment is not key to the investor. We need investment in Dover to be under the control of its stakeholders.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Below extract from yesterday's Hansard in House of Commons:
"Foremost in that campaign has been my hon. Friend the Member for Dover (Charlie Elphicke), who has been a formidable campaigner to ensure that community interests are recognised in the port. He has stood up for what he believes is right for the port. I am pleased that there has been significant negotiation between the harbour board and community interests, as well as with the Department for Transport. To use that favourite phrase, I am anticipating making an announcement in the near future."
Guest 715- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 2,438
Is that a full quote Neil or is the last sentence your own?
Audere est facere.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i wondered that but the inverted commas cover it all.
