16 September 2010
14:1071119Alexander. In the middle of reading A History of Christianity by Dairmaid MacCulloch. <1000 pages but interesting IMHO.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
16 September 2010
14:1571121Bob, have you read: the orgins of the English Church by D. Alexander?
It's on Internet.
16 September 2010
14:2271123Alexander. Grateful for link? Today mostly listening to Dirty Projectors (again!) Bitte Orca. V Good IMHO!
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
16 September 2010
14:5771136The problem with ALL religions is they have no control over the people who follow them. There are good and bad followers, we only hear of the bad, which is just the same as all the news in our everyday lives.
Some people have shown their prejudice or have not been careful enough with the wording in their posts. Just accept their ignorance for what it is, sadly we can't all be perfect.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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16 September 2010
15:2571140I don't think anyone has had a pop at the individuals, just the institution.
I recall feverish posting about 'institutional racism' accompanied by high and mighty views about said subject and how we should root out those responsible, name and shame and drag through the streets type stuff.
Well, some of us feel this particular branch of the Church is suffering from something akin to institutional child abuse.
Paul is right to remind us that Catholics were on the receiving end, but as it is the institution that is covering up these horrible incidents only the man at the very top can make a real difference. Sadly, to date, the inertia we see at that level leads some of us to conclude there is much more being hidden, as is also the case with converted Jews refused help by the Vatican in WWII and subsequently sent to gas chambers in Poland.
Until Hispopeness goes public with his condemnation and 'outs' publicy those responsible for the crimes AND cover-ups, people like Rick and me with have fuel for our fire.
Guest 657- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,037
16 September 2010
15:5771158Colette
16 September 2010
16:3971170PaulB, you put it so well.
I do not see Rick and Sid as "passionate" - his abuse of me and other people of my faith is insulting. I would welcome a proper discussion around the issues, but the barrage of hatred is impossible to scale. How dare you accuse those of us who do not shout about the Pope being evil of not caring? As Paul points out - the majority of the victims of those priests are Catholics themselves. I attended a convent as a child and also experienced some difficult times - that doesn't mean I think all nuns and all priests are the same. I think some are great, some are ok, some are unpleasant. Same as any other group of random people. That is a grown up approach, and I think I like it.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
16 September 2010
16:4571172What is God thinking at this and how the world is turning its back on him? and puting all the blame back to him.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
16 September 2010
17:1671178i must admit i have been hooked on the skynews coverage up in scotland.
clearly the negative stuff has been put to one side and great to see so many happy people enjoying the event.
he is reading mass in a few minutes, might even watch that too, saw and heard susan boyle sing for the first time earlier.
i can understand how she is so popular, her rendition of two hymns was spellbinding.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
16 September 2010
18:0271188To all Catholics here....
A really long time ago when I was in hospital after having my third child I had no visitors during evening visiting time.
A nun 'doing her duty' came and spoke to me. She was one of the nicest people I have ever met and chatted away for quite a while even though I had told her I was not religious at all.
This lady and a C of E vicar I once met were the people who made me realize that there are good and bad people regardless of their faith or lack of it.
I think the 'problem' with the Pope and his advisors is that they behind the times with their thinking. People now think for themselves and will no longer be dictated to in the way they used to be when these men were young. In most cases faith of any kind is no longer blind.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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16 September 2010
18:0771190Good posting Jan, thanks.
An additional problem to being behind the times is they are too remote from the real world being tucked up nice and luxuriously in the Vatican; and it is luxurious beyond belief.
Leadership is required, and sadly, very old men aren't usually very good at that part of the job. Even the previous pope whose stature was akin to Nelson Mandela's failed badly to lead his church into a new era. Maybe one day they will vote in a young thrusting Blair type, but one that doesn't tell lies of course! lol
16 September 2010
19:1171203Sorry Sid -what do you know about it? I am not being offensive, I genuinely want to know. Because one of the things about leadership in religion is that it has no imperative to "thrust", "be modern" or "change". One of the many purposes of religious leadership, especially in this particular Church, is to reinforce the moral bases. That means NOT going with the flow but challenging that flow if needed. Being remote is sometimes essential to that in order to enable full intellectual scrutiny of the theology behind that. It is much much more complex than anyone seems to give it credit for!!
16 September 2010
19:1171204Sorry - dodgy digits a double post!!
16 September 2010
19:5471205I've seen on here exactly the sort of reaction I would expect from the Catholic followers. I've attacked a religious institution, never once have I attacked any individual followers. Like Islam, it seems Catholicism is beyond criticism. As soon as you attack it (for what I regard as a VERY legitimate reason) all the accusations of "insult" and "low brow debate" are hurled around. Stuff having a "proper debate" because such a debate is only possible if you agree and believe in the faith. Quite frankly the Catholic church owes the world a debt it can never repay, any more than the Nazis can ever repay what they did to Jews or English and American aristocrats can never repay what they did to black slaves. The sheer scale of the Catholic child abuse scandal really is so huge that it has to be regarded with equal disgust as these other dark eras of history. I'm sick of this issue being treated like it's just "a few individuals".
Nothing will ever change your views. Nothing will ever change mine either. To me all religion is evil and a huge blemish on this world, and the Pope is a gross figure of evil who still, to this very day, will not do the right thing with regards his in-house child molesters, gay rights, female ordinations, use of contraceptives or tolerance for non-Catholics. I actually took the time to watch the Pope's claptrap on the TV news and took special note of the "aggressive atheism" he spoke of, and the "wave of secularism" that is taking over most of society (long may it reign). I was also bewildered by his remarks in which he praised England for fighting the "atheistic Nazis" during WWII. You see? To him, that war was a war against non-belief in the Catholic faith. He went on express his wish to see more religious influence in everyday decision making, even at political levels. In other words, just like Islam wants to take over everything and rule everything, so it seems does the Catholic church. Neither will succeed in the UK without a war to force it into power. All religion has at its heart expansionism, control, and the propagation of its influence. Claiming it is spreading the word of god is all lies. It's just a system that allows a few elite individuals to grow their power and influence by selling an attractive lifestyle proposition to the gullible masses. No offense.
I'm really past caring any more for this debate, so I'll end my contribution to this thread by stealing a quote from a British legend, Stephen Fry: "Religion. Sh*t it."
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
16 September 2010
20:1871210thanks for the rant rick, you appear to have shot yourself in the foot though, the pontiff referred to extreme atheism being similar to the nazis.
on this forum you, an extreme atheist have advocated burning the bible and koran!!
sound familiar?
anyway as a serial unconvinced simpleton i have been captivated by the events of the afternoon and evening, what struck me about the 65,000 people in the park and the estimated 140,000 that lined the route was the sheer pleasure and satisfaction they were getting.
in an age of cynicism where gaining a few bob, buying the latest flat screen and green currant phone, that people still search for something intangible and spiritual.
i have to say that the old kraut bloke made a lot of sense in his earlier speech about beliefs being trodden on or sidelined.
i sincerely believe that all beliefs and creeds including atheists have the right to express their views publicly without fear of ridicule or aggression.
on a lighter note, reference was made to "the last supper" today, i make no apology in regurgitating this old one, my all time favourite joke.
jesus arrives and finds the disciples tucking into a chinese takeaway, with many more polystyrene containers still waiting to be opened.
aghast he cries "i cannot afford to pay for all this"!! the reply comes back "no probs master, judas has just come into some money".
16 September 2010
20:3671216Howard - love it!!
Rick - what's up, chuck? Can 't take the opposition?
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
16 September 2010
20:3671217Personally, I wouldn`t burn the Koran, or a bible, I`d read them and then pass comment. The trouble with alot of religious people is, they won`t read the like`s of Richard Dawkins and other`s, so that they`re in a better position to argue about a god`s existence. I`ve said before on here, when Jehova`s witnesses come round, I`m happy to talk to them, and I do so because I`ve read the bible, and I`ve read astronomy and books on the physics of the universe, and I catch them out everytime. I`m not proud of that, and I don`t go out of my way to put them down, but when one replied to me last year that they hadn`t heard of Richard Dawkins, the world`s leading athiest, and then said goodbye and walked off, I thought, you liar, how can I now believe anything you`d ever say anyway? A bit of diversity from the pope maybe, but worthy of peaceful discussion?
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
16 September 2010
20:4571221exactly my point colin, freedom of people to read any views and draw their own conclusions.
i have read all the main religious tomes, found them to be enlightening but also contradictory.
much the same with science, each egghead has slightly different views based on their own research.
i pride myself on knowing that i am not clever enough to know the answers to the burning questions, i may find out when i kick the bucket though.
16 September 2010
20:5271223But there's also fun to be had kicking the tyres before the bucket. I like tell JW's that I'm a Baptist as it sometimes creates a definite shudder they seem unable to mask. To this day I've never know why, but it's good sport.
Some years back I attended a mass rally held by US representatives of the Church of Latter Day Saints. When we were invited to ask questions I saw my chance for mischief (would you expect anything less?).
Q1. Are Mormons pacifists?
A1. Yes
Q2. Do Mormons believe in war as a means to an end?
A2. No
Q3. Are Mormons fighting in Vietnam (sort of dates the event).
A3. Yes, erm, well, that may be true but I'm not sure (red face, pants around ankles)
So, I'm not patient enough to wait for the bucket kicking ceremony, I want to meet St Peter fully prepared.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
16 September 2010
21:0771226-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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