howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i don't really see much difference between a trust and a provident society, both seem to be aimed at community involvement and some control.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
May I ask now: is this p/p thing a trust or not?
Ross, who has in the past given the most information on the whole project, says it isn't.
Peter says it is. If the arguments already start here, then how can it ever get to a referendum?
I am confused. I was convinced it was specified as a trust.
Oh how can I ovte on this?
It is so blinkered!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
How would you define a trust, Alexander?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I know even less now than half an hour ago about Charlie's port. Is it actually a trust, Peter?
If they don't even know how to define it on a referendum sheet, people will be so confused!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
There are many legal definitions of various types of trust. Basically trustees manage assets for the benefit of people other than themselves. On that definition we are a trust.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Peter, I think Charlie might have some problems with his trust plans, as Dover Port is a State asset, and any transfer to a trust would have to be made by the Government.
However, there are laws regulating how bidders would be able to tender in order to supply the finances, and the Government would have to look at these bids to see which are more favourable.
Charlie has already chosen who he wants to finance a trust that he himself has set up, without any bidders being allowed to tender, and wants to have the property of DHB transferred to this trust.
Unless the small-print of the p/p trust plans are made clear to the people of Dover, including the conditions which Charlie's hand-picked would-be financers for a trust have laid out, I doubt the referendum would have any effect on the Government.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Peter
You appear to be under the impression that because Ed Milliband and/or the Labour party form a view on a subject that I would blindly follow them.
I left the Labour party because of i disagreed with them.
I have on this particular subject asked questions, and not opposed the peoples port plan, but i remain unconvinced of the viability of the project.
Like Gary that's my personal viewpoint.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
So keith you are 'unconvinced of the viability of the scheme'. Fair enough but would you mind expanding on why you think that.
I have to disagree. I do think that the scheme is viable and my reasons for this are:
1/My own knowedge of business and finance in general. While I am involved in the retail, personal investment, end of financial advice I nevertheless do have a fair bit of knowledge about business finance and issues surrounding it.
2/Dover's geographical location. This gives it an inbuilt advantage over competitors.
3/Economic growth. We are at the bottom of an economic cycle and while there is a rocky road ahead recovery will work its way through boosting trade and increasing cross channel volumes and therefore port revenues.
4/Dover Port is a going concern and not a speculative start-up. This means there is solid proven data that can be used to assess revenues over many, many years.
5/The City view that Dover Port bonds would be low risk investment grade issues. This would mean that interest rates paid would be low. In other words the people who regularly invest in this way and understand business risk will be willing to take a lower rate of return for what they see as a low risk investment in The People's Port. If such people view the project this way and are willing to put up their own money who are we to argue.
So I believe that there is substantial evidence that this project is a viable one and it would be interesting to see what evidence you have on which to base your opinion Keith.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
dover port will always be a cast iron certainty to make money despite any peaks and troughs in the economy.
in 200 years time whatever mode of transport that replaces trucks and motor cars will always need the shortest crossing to mainland europe.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Barryw
I probably need to start by saying if this were gwyn prosser or the labour party moving in this direction i would have the same concerns, so my reasonin has no political content.
I'm also well aware the local tories are running with this idea, so im also wary.
So let's lokk at your posting baz;
1;Would I trust you with m,y finances???? no, so i think that answers that one, you may have some knowledge, and i respect that
2;I Don't disagree with this
3;We certainly have hit rock bottom as you say, and that probably is a concern
on the the ten pound bounds and how small that take up may be
4; I don't dismiss, but looking at the town hall meeting the unanswered
questions which may well have made good business sense, i have no idea
it remains to be seen if the panel is up to the job talk is cheap, action much
more expensive(or could be)
5; It's the city part of the finance that is of concern, no one will put a lot of dosh
into a project without return, and although they may well be happy for a
lower return this again will raise the question of who will realy have a say
on the port, the local community? the city? others?
6; What happens if disagreements between the city/locals?
7; What happens in the likelehood of a small turn up of tenners?
8; will this affect the balance of the community having a say?
9; What can the people have a say on, as it appears theres very little will
go before the local community
I will stop there as i have lots more but don't want to take up all the space
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I would say the percentage of sceptics in the Tory camp is about the same as in the population at large. It really isn't a political issue although political levers will need to be pulled to make it happen.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Peter Garstin,
You have, again, twisted my words. Read it again.
I don't support PP but I did wish it luck and hope it works if implemented.
My comment about blame was a throw away, at BarryW, most of his replies carry blame in with them and why not, if that is what he feels is right. I can see nothing wrong with that.
Are you saying it is wrong for people to lay blame in their posts? Sounds like one of my novice blunders that one Peter.
If I was bothered to go through your posts I am sure I would find many with blame in them. So why pick on that now?
Deflection away from the main points maybe?
Why will Deal not benefit from PP, why is it being left out?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
blimey gary is there 2 gary's? one from Deal?
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Well Keith I frankly do not care about whether you want my advice or not or would trust it, plenty of people do and pay for it accordingly. Seeing 90% of my income comes from retainers and the success of investments the proof of the pudding and all that....
Responding to your points I should point out that I am not part of the project , dont have inside information and cannot answer for them officially, but I can provide some answers from what was said at the meeting. Perhaps Peter might say more and confirm/correct me if I have misunderstood or got anything wrong.
I will tackle your points as you raise them.
3/ I fail to see the point you make about the £10, it is peanuts and is low enough to be open to anyone. I did not expect to see over 400 people at the meeting last week...or to see them so supportive either. That sum is nothing to do with the viability question as this does not form the financing of the project, it just provides a 'membership' so to speak and any rights that may go with it.
4/ Well you have people involved who have considerable experience in Port operations and specialists the financing of infrastructure projects such as this. These people know what they are talking about and as far as I can see there are good and reasonable reasons for any unanswered questions that do not call into question the viability of the project.
5/ You may not be aware that financing through debt bonds confers no ownership rights or operational say to the investors unlike equity ownership through shares. They will get their return from the interest paid and have indicated that this project will attract low risk investors who will demand a low interest due to the issues being viewed as 'investment grade'. You may not know but if the City had concerns over the viability of the People's Port the debt bonds would be 'high grade' issues paying higher rates of interest, maybe what the media call 'junk bonds'.
You may not trust the City and it may be that prejudice that holds back you from supporting the scheme, fair enough, but I do not see that as a valid concern at all seeing the facts of the matter.
6/ Your '6' of course, not mine. This is simply not an issue at all, as no equity ownership is conveyed to the financiers the matter will not arise. Of course future bond issues for Port development must be based on the viability of Port and whatever project the cash is raised for but that is perfectly normal commercial practise and again does not convey equity ownership. Only the members will get a say and even then it will not be on detailed management issues as this must be left to the appointed managers.
7/ Again yours: Not a matter of concern as this is not funding the project and only conveys membership and a say. I am actually quite optimistic about the potential take-up and really quite excited about it and being a part of this project.
8/ Your 8 again - no - those who pay up will have their say of course but other stakeholders, the councils, voluntary groups etc I believe will all have a say regardless. Indeed in the unlikely event that few individuals join up with £10 these groups will have a greater say. Not necessarily positive but not a negative either and this does not impact on viability.
9/ That is a good question and perhaps Peter or someone might give a better idea than I can. I believe that you will have the same kind of say/rights as you would if a member of a building society or co-op. That to me, says it all really.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Gary I am sorry if I gave any offence, that was not my intention. But I got the impression from your words that you were writing about people blaming each other for whatever the outcome might be. That's rather like discussing who to blame for the crash while the plane is still boarding.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
BAZ;
I based my first part on your posting that it make busness sense as your employment back gives you the insight into knowing a good project when you see one.
I merely replied that i have over the years had no problems sorting my own finances, and because you may come from a fnancial background does not mean you know more than anyone else on the subject
The rest of the points, we will go rond and round in circles, and probably then still disagree, i hope the peoples port proposal gets it right, and it pans out the way it's supporters say it will.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
They should drop the the name of a Peoples port,It will never be that only in name.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
In answer to your point 9, Keith, here are the relevant sections of the constitution. I think this also answers the Deal question. Deal is within the 'area of benefit'. It's somewhat wordy but it was written by lawyers and words are what they do best!
PART A NAME AND OBJECTS
Name
A1 The name of the society shall be The Dover People's Port Trust Limited ("the association").
Objects
A2 The association is formed for the benefit of the community. Its objects shall be to carry on for the benefit of the community within England and Wales and in particular the Town of Dover and its neighbouring areas (the "Area of Benefit"):
A2.1 The promotion for the benefit of the public of urban or rural regeneration in areas of social and economic deprivation, in particular in the Area of Benefit, its Port by all or any of the following means:-
a) the relief of financial hardship
b) the relief of unemployment
c) the advancement of education, training or retraining, particularly among unemployed people and providing unemployed people with work experience
d) the provision of financial assistance, technical assistance or business advice or consultancy in order to provide training and employment opportunities for unemployed people in cases of financial or other charitable need through help (i) in setting up their own business, or (ii) to existing businesses
e) the creation of training and employment opportunities by the provision of workspace, buildings, and/or land for use on favourable terms
f) the provision of housing for those who are in conditions of need and the improvement of housing in the public sector or in charitable ownership provided that such power shall not extend to relieving any local authorities or other bodies of a statutory duty to improve housing
g) the maintenance, improvement and provision of public amenities
h) the preservation of buildings or sites of historic or architectural importance
i) the provision of recreational facilities for the public at large or those who by reason of their youth, age, infirmity or disability, financial hardship or social and economic circumstances, have need of such facilities
j) the protection or conservation of the environment
k) the provision of public health facilities and childcare
l) the promotion of public safety and prevention of crime
m) the development of the capacity and skills of the members of socially and economically disadvantaged communities in the Area of Benefit such a way as they are better able to identify, and help meet, their needs and to participate more fully in society
n) other activities referred to in section 126 of the Housing Grants, Construction and Regeneration Act 1996,
A2.2 any other charitable object that can be carried out by an Industrial and Provident Society.
Non-profit
A3 The association shall not trade for profit.
A4 Nothing shall be paid or transferred by way of profit to shareholders of the association.
PART B POWERS OF ASSOCIATION, BOARD, AND SHAREHOLDERS
Powers
B1 The association shall have power to do anything that a natural or corporate person can lawfully do which is necessary or expedient to achieve its objects, except as expressly prohibited in these rules.
B2 Without limiting its general powers the association shall have power to:
B2.1 take or grant any interest in land, including any mortgage, charge, floating charge or other security whatsoever or carry out works to buildings;
B2.2 to acquire, or hire, property of any kind to sell, dispose of, let, hold or build or otherwise deal with any property, land or buildings owned by the association
B2.3 help any charity or other body not trading for profit in relation to any of the objects;
B2.4 subject to rules F13, F14 and F15 borrow money or issue loan stock for the purposes of the association on such terms as the association thinks fit;
B2.5 subject to rule F17 invest the funds of the association; and
B2.6 lend money or borrow and/or lend money to any subsidiary, parent or associate of the association which is a charitable entity, and/or guarantee, enter into any contract of indemnity or suretyship or provide security for the borrowings or performance of the obligations of any subsidiary, parent or associate of the association which is a charitable entity in each case on such terms as the association shall think fit.
B3 The association shall not have power to receive money on deposit in any way which would require authorisation under the Banking Act 1987 or any other authority required by statute unless it has such authorisation.
Powers of the board
B4 The business of the association shall be directed by the board.
B5 Apart from those powers which must be exercised in general meeting:
B5.1 by statute; or
B5.2 under these rules
all the powers of the association may be exercised by the board for and in the name of the association.
B6 The board shall have power to delegate, in writing, the exercise of any of its powers to committees and to employees of the association or of any parent or associate of the association on such terms as it determines. Such delegation may include any of the powers and discretions of the board.
Limited powers of shareholders in general meeting
B7 The association in general meeting can only exercise the powers of the association expressly reserved to it by these rules or by statute.
General
B8 The certificate of an officer of the association that a power has been properly exercised shall be conclusive as between the association and any third party acting in good faith.
B9 A person acting in good faith who does not have actual notice of any regulations shall not be obliged to see or enquire if the board's powers are restricted by such regulations.
PART C SHAREHOLDERS AND GENERAL MEETINGS
Obligations of shareholders
C1 All shareholders agree to be bound by the obligations on them as set out in these rules. When acting as shareholders they shall act at all times in the interests of the association and, for the benefit of the community, as guardians of the objects of the association.
Nature of shares
C2 The association's share capital shall be raised by the issue of shares. Each share has the nominal value of one pound which shall carry no right to interest, dividend or bonus.
C3 Only shares held by the nominee of an unincorporated body (alone or jointly with other nominees) can be transferred and only to a new nominee (alone or jointly with other nominees) of that unincorporated body.
C4 When a shareholder ceases to be a shareholder or is expelled from the association, his or her share shall be cancelled. The amount paid up shall become the property of the association.
Nature of shareholders
C5 A shareholder of the association is a person or body whose name and address is entered in the register of shareholders.
C6 The following cannot be shareholders:
C6.1 a minor;
C6.2 a person who has been expelled as a shareholder, unless authorised by special resolution at a general meeting; or
C6.3 an employee of the association or an employee of any other body whose accounts must be consolidated with those of the association.
C7 A shareholder can be the nominee of an unincorporated body. In such cases the register shall contain the name and address of the shareholder, and shall designate the shareholder as the nominee of a named unincorporated body. The address of the unincorporated body shall also be entered in the register if it differs from the address of the shareholder nominee.
C8 A corporate body can be a shareholder. It can appoint an individual to exercise its rights at general meetings. Any such appointment shall be in writing, and given to the secretary.
C9 No shareholder shall hold more than one share and each share shall carry only one vote.
C10 A share cannot be held jointly unless by nominees of an unincorporated body.
Admission of shareholders
C11 The board shall set review and publish its policies and objectives for admitting new shareholders, provided nevertheless, that, save for the initial members, only persons resident, or corporate bodies with offices, in the administrative area of Dover District Council will be eligible for admission. The board shall only admit new shareholders in accordance with such policies.
C12 An applicant for a share shall apply in writing to the association's registered office:
C12.1 setting out their reasons for applying and their qualifications in accordance with the association's policies; and
C12.2 pay the sum of ten pounds (which shall be returned to them if the application is not approved).
C13 Every application shall be considered by the board in accordance with rule C11. The board has the power in its absolute discretion to accept or reject the application. If the application is approved both by the board the name of the applicant and the other necessary particulars shall be entered in the register of shareholders. One share in the association shall be issued to the applicant.
Ending of shareholding
C14 A shareholder shall cease to be a shareholder if:
C14.1 they die; or
C14.2 they are expelled under rule C15; or
C14.3 they withdraw from the association by giving notice to the secretary which shall be effective on receipt by the secretary; or
C14.4 in the case of a body corporate it ceases to be a body corporate; or
C14.5 in the case of the nominee of an unincorporated body, they transfer their share to another nominee of that body; or
C14.6 they cease to be eligible to be a shareholder under rule C6.
C15 C15.1 A shareholder may only be expelled by a special resolution at a special general meeting called by the board.
C15.2 The board must give the shareholder at least one month's notice in writing of the general meeting. The notice to the shareholders must set out the particulars of the complaint of conduct detrimental to the association, and must request the shareholder to attend the meeting to answer the complaint.
C15.3 At the general meeting called for this purpose the shareholders shall consider the evidence presented by the board and by the shareholder (if any). The meeting may take place even if the shareholder does not attend.
C15.4 If the resolution to expel the shareholder is passed in accordance with this rule, the shareholder shall immediately cease to be a shareholder.
Annual general meeting
C16 The association shall hold a general meeting called the annual general meeting within six calendar months after the close of each of its financial years.
C17 The functions of the annual general meeting shall be:
C17.1 to receive the annual report which shall contain:
(a) the revenue accounts and balance sheets for the last accounting period;
(b) the auditor's report (if one is required by law) on those accounts and balance sheets;
(c) the board's report on the affairs of the association;
(d) the board's statement of the values and objectives of the association;
(e) a statement of the current obligations of board members to the board and the association;
(f) a statement of the skills, qualities and experience required by the board amongst its members; and
(g) the policy for admitting new shareholders.
C17.2 to appoint the auditor (if one is required by law);
C17.3 to elect board members if applicable;
C17.4 to transact any other general business of the association proposed by the board and included in the notice convening the meeting including any business that requires a special resolution.
Special general meetings
C18 C18.1 All general meetings other than annual general meetings shall be special general meetings and shall be convened either:
(a) upon an order of the board;
C18.2 If within twenty-eight days after delivery of a requisition to the secretary a meeting is not convened, the members who have signed the requisition may convene a meeting.
C19 A special general meeting shall not transact any business that is not set out in the notice convening the meeting.
Calling a general meeting
C20 C20.1 All general meetings shall be convened by at least fourteen clear days' written notice posted or delivered by hand or sent by fax or e mail to every member at the address fax number or e mail address given in the share register. The notice shall state whether the meeting is an annual or special general meeting, the time, date and place of the meeting, and the business for which it is convened.
C20.2 All shareholders may agree by consenting in writing or by e mail to a general meeting being held on less than fourteen clear days' notice.
C21 Any accidental failure to get any notice to any shareholder, shall not invalidate the proceedings at that general meeting. A notice or communication sent to a shareholder at their address, fax number or e mail address shown in the register of shareholders shall be deemed to have arrived as specified in rule G15.16.
Proceedings at general meetings
C22 Before any general meeting can start its business there must be a quorum present. A quorum is one-tenth of all shareholders with a minimum number of six and a maximum number of 25. As part of the quorum at least two shareholders must be present in person. At least one third of the quorum must be Independent Persons.
C23 A meeting held as a result of a shareholder's requisition will be dissolved if too few shareholders are present half an hour after the meeting should begin.
C24 All other general meetings with too few shareholders will be adjourned to the same day, at the same time and place in the following week. If too few shareholders are present within half an hour of the time the adjourned meeting should have started, those shareholders present shall carry out the business of the meeting.
C25 The chair of any general meeting can:
C25.1 take the business of the meeting in any order that the chair may decide; and
C25.2 adjourn the meeting if the majority of the shareholders present in person or by proxy agree. An adjourned meeting can only deal with matters adjourned from the original meeting. An adjourned meeting is a continuation of the original meeting. The date of all resolutions passed is the date they were passed (as opposed to the date of the original meeting). There is no need to give notice of an adjournment or to give notice of the business to be transacted.
C26 At all general meetings of the association the chair of the board shall preside. If there is no such chair or if the chair is not present or is unwilling to act, the deputy chair (if any) shall chair the meeting, failing which the shareholders present shall elect a shareholder to chair the meeting. The person elected shall be a member of the board if one is present and willing to act.
Proxies
C27 A proxy can be appointed by delivering a written appointment by post or by hand to the registered office by no later than 12 noon two business days before the date of the meeting at which the proxy is authorised to vote. It must be signed by the shareholder or a duly authorised attorney. Any proxy form delivered late shall be invalid. Any question as to the validity of a proxy shall be determined by the chair of the meeting whose decision shall be final. A proxy need not be a shareholder of the association.
Voting
C28 Subject to the provisions of these rules or of any statute, a resolution put to the vote at a general meeting shall, except where a ballot is demanded or directed, be decided upon a show of hands.
C29 On a show of hands every shareholder present in person and on a ballot every shareholder present in person or by proxy shall have one vote. In the case of an equality of votes the chair of the meeting shall have a second or casting vote.
C30 Unless a ballot is demanded (either before or immediately after the vote), a declaration by the chair that a resolution on a show of hands has been carried or lost, unanimously or by a particular majority, is conclusive. An entry made to that effect in the book containing the minutes of the proceedings of the association, shall be conclusive evidence of that fact.
C31 Any question as to the acceptability of any vote whether tendered personally or by proxy, shall be determined by the chair of the meeting, whose decision shall be final.
C32 A ballot on a resolution may be demanded by any three shareholders at a meeting (in person or by proxy) or directed by the chair (and such demand or direction may be withdrawn). A ballot may be demanded or directed after a vote on the show of hands, and in that case the resolution shall be decided by the ballot.
C33 A ballot shall be taken at the meeting at such time and in such manner as the chair shall direct. The result of such a ballot shall be deemed to be the resolution of the association in general meeting.
C34 A resolution in writing sent to all shareholders by post, fax or e mail, or delivered by hand, and signed by three quarters of such shareholders shall be as valid and effective as if it had been passed at a properly called and constituted meeting of shareholders.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
PETER
I'm probably a saddo lol and have read that lot again,
it does pose many more questions, but it will go round and round,
we will just have to differ on this one.
I'm sure there are many other subjects that we will be at one on
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
disagree peter, it states the "town of dover and it's neighbouring areas", i would take that to mean places like whitfield and river.
besides only the town of dover is shelling out for a referendum.