Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,025
17 January 2010
10:5738005No paper record Keith .What they talk about behind closed doors is another matter .I think a lesson has been learnt .You must have decisions recorded or at least an audit trail of how a decision is made .Its no good someone saying something in a social or official meeting .
Bit like a cheesy second hand car deal .Hand shake here nod and a wink know what I mean .
Councils have to be held to account .I always challenge minutes if they are incorrect not the decision but the wording .
My instinict tells me we will not get the toilets reopened .Unless the public have the options voted upon one by one .
.They may want the toilets but not Tourism ,planters but not flower beds .
If DDC reopen them something will have to go .Will it be the fountain ,play area equipment .Difficult choices in a We already have cut out a cabinet member .
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
17 January 2010
13:1838017I have heard rumours that DTC have had a underspend in the last couple of years, something to the tune of six figures. If true, and I don't know if this is the case, could this money in the kitty not be utilised in funding the toilet? Therefore would it really be necessary to raise the precept?
I apologise if this isn't the case - I'm a non-political joe public without inside knowledge. However, if correct I'd be curious as to the answer.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
17 January 2010
13:2738019Good question Phil,I am not sure if DTC have spare cash,what I can tell you is that DDC have/had money put aside remember the £1 Million in Iceland all Councils have some in reserve remember the shock when KCC said they had £50 Million in Iceland.The recommended amout is usually a percentage of I think 2 to 5 %
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
17 January 2010
13:553802517 January 2010
14:1238029Phil
To answer your question, DTC is required to keep a large reserve for emergencies and as a guarantee for our mortgage on the premises. I do consider its more than any business would but then our hands are tied. This has given strength to the rumour that we have spare money but it isnt spare if you arent allowed to spend it. In the case of a local emergency like flooding etc I suspect the govt would give us leave to use it then replace it.
In respect of underspend - yes each year we usually have an underspend and that is taken into account when assessing the following years rates. thus last years underspend resulted in a Zero rate 2009/10 as we are predicting for next year and have again set a zero rate 2010/11. Within our next years budget we have made some provision for Tourism as we were advised that DDC were deleting that but I suspect it now wont be enough. We did not have enough information to include any provision for toilets when the rate was set.
Hope that answers your question - last years accounts are on our Web and this years will be published as soon as they have been audited.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
17 January 2010
14:1438030Excellent - thanks very much for the explanation David.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
17 January 2010
14:2438031I think SUE clarrifies the position realy well, lthough many cabinet members may have been part of this decision(remember it was behind closed doors if i happened at all)_
As Sue says this never went officially before a cabinet meeting, nor did ANY cabinet member feel the need to CONSULT the public.
So it looks like Nigel has been left by his party cabinet members to hang out to dry.
Then we see ROGER attempting to justify it even though he admits he to wasnt consulted yet he is part of that party.
But take away the mistake that has been made, and look deeper into this cabinet system.
Are we all then happy that decisions on OUR future can be decided behind closed doors, with us having no imput what so ever?
Im sorry but this is serious stuff, and we shouldnt just sit back and accept thats how it is.
The toilets although bad enough as a decision, what else wont we be told about
we need change
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
17 January 2010
17:4338045I haven't tried to justify anything Keith, just try to put the honest view.
I don't think we can keep digging at Nigel - making him the sole scape-goat, I agree that perhaps he could/should have come on here on page 1 or 2 to give his reasons and by not doing so, has possibly made the situation worse.
Roger
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
17 January 2010
17:5438047Roger I was told by an officer it was Nigel's decision,so when I went back to find the Cabinet mins or the Council Mins,there weren't any,the exact words were from the officer was.
'Don't blame me it was Nigel Coller's idea' That Roger is why you can't find anything on it,because there is no paper work,it was discussed if it was discussed in a non public enviorment.But at DDC on Wednesday I will attemp to find out who knew,and who made the decision.This is not being political in so far as that is my job on Scrutiny to challenge decisions,and find out how,why and when,and I certainly will.
The other thing you said don't make Nigel the scape-goat,then you say he should tell us his reasons,I agree I am not calling for his head,far from it Nigel is a friend and he works hard for Dover,but I want the toilets open!
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
17 January 2010
18:0838050Thanks John.
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
17 January 2010
18:1538051JOHN
And i think thats everyones view, nowt political had it not been nigels decision and instead it was Johns I would be posting exactly the same asking John to justify his sole decision
Also theres still the wider implications.
We also see interestingly the officers distancing themselves from NIGEL
This wont go away,
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
17 January 2010
20:0938074surely the officers must distance themselves from an elected councillor?
their job is simply to carry out the instructions given to them by a cabinet member of the ruling party.
that is why you will never get an officer of DDC posting on here, neutrality is vital to their job.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
17 January 2010
20:4438082Ah Howard,that is the question did the officer do as he was told or did the officer do it without being told,we may never find out,but I will try on Wednesday.
If it was the officer what is the point of Council's just let the Council officers do as they think,or was he following instructions and if so who made the decision when where why and who are the things we need to find out and get them back open.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
17 January 2010
21:0238084I do think we have said all there is to say on this one lets just wait till the meeting now.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
17 January 2010
21:3938085JOHN
Now we start to get somewhere I have complained before that realy its the officers that run the council at DDC and realy because cllrs are part time the officers fill the vacuum, if i were an officer i would do the same.
But thats aniother big issue realy.
This debate is about the closure of the toilets and lack of consultation and the lack of democracy
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
17 January 2010
22:2038089i am a bit shocked by the suggesstion john's post.
i cannot imagine that such a decision would be under the control of an officer.
should it be true, nigel is due a massive apology from those that have castigated him.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
18 January 2010
08:1338105I would think that only a very, very senior officer - a member of the Executive could make such a decision; I did say earlier that it was a Cabinet/Executive decision.
Even the Executive don't make decisions without input from the Cabinet/Leader - that's why this adminstration is Member-led, not officer-led.
If it was just officer-led, there'd be no need for elected councillors would there ?
Roger
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
18 January 2010
08:1838106ROGER
You realy are away with the fairies if you believe the officers dont run the council(or many of them)
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
18 January 2010
08:4238117It depends on what you mean by run it Keith. The officers of course do the work, but the members make the decisions after having requested the (relevant) information; they also decide on the direction the Council will go in and what will happen; members also of course decide on where the money is spent.
Roger
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,025
18 January 2010
10:3438128Well Vic has said wait until Wednesday .I think it is a great shame that someone could not make the decision to unlock the toilets before the result of the meeting .I said earlier if DTC dont take them on DDC will make cuts elsewhere .
Roger its not quite so straight forward as you think re decisions .I think some people need to go to spec saves .Rose tinted ?? Often its a case of lip service.
I did find a budget report 2008 and it stated there the toilets would be reviewed .I now need to find a follow on document .
