Unregistered User
19 January 2010
09:1838227Posted below is information from DDC's Head of Finance which I have had prepared for tomorrow evening's meeting. Whilst it might not be straightforward for some to pick up on first read. It really contains the initial financial facts.
I suppose the point to make is that if accepted in total or part and implemented by DTC, Dover council taxpayers will only pay for their loos and each Town or village will pay only for theirs. These sums will then be removed from the DDC proportion of your Council tax.
You only pay for loos once. If accepted DDC will continue to run the contract for the life of the existing agreement, therefore no extra admins costs for DTC. The benefit of better prices from a larger contract also continue to come into play. If DTC want extra opening hours or more frequent cleaning schedules these can be added to the contract. Local people making local decisions.
Dover District Council Budget 2010/11
The Council Tax charge raised by Dover District Council (DDC) for its own purposes is amongst the lowest for a district in Kent. The Band D charge for DDC is £155.07. This compares with the following charges for neighbouring authorities :
Council
Annual Band D Council Tax
£
Dover District Council 155.07
Canterbury City Council 174.42
Shepway District Council 239.00
Thanet District Council 204.93
Central Government has the power to limit (or cap) the Council Tax raised by upper tier and second tier authorities (such as Kent County Council and Dover District Council), but does not have the power to cap town and parish councils. They are free to increase their element of the Council Tax as they choose.
The government does not announce the criteria for capping before councils set their budgets. In recent years this cap has been set at 5%. For 2010/11 it is widely expected to be set at no more than 3% - this would enable DDC to increase the Council Tax it sets for its own purposes, at Band D, by up to £4.65 per annum or 9p per week.
At the same time, the Government has increased the £10.164m of revenue grant it provides to the Council by just 0.5% for 2010/11. A 3% increase in Council Tax is not, therefore sufficient to make up for the shortfall in revenue grant from Government - before any increases in costs, and reductions in other income are taken into account.
DDC is therefore working with Town and Parish Councils to protect services within the resources available. The table below shows the costs, currently borne by DDC, to maintain the toilets in Dover Town.
Dover TC Precept Costs (Based on 2009/10 Precept of £625,650)
Connaught Park
Costs per toilet...
Stembrook £9,824.41
Maison Dieu £24,884.18
Buckland Bridge £17,875.13
Esplanade £8,686.98
East Cliff £15,935.54
Total £86,984.77
Band D Cost per week 0.02 0.05 0.04 0.02 0.02 0.03 0.18
Band D Cost per year 1.04 2.65 1.90 0.92 1.04 1.69 9.24
If the Town Council chose to increase its Council Tax for a Band D property by £9.24 per annum, or 18p per week, this would raise sufficient funds to meet all of the above costs. The overall Council Tax for a Band D property in Dover Town is £1,448.59, so the increase required would amount to 0.64% of the total Council Tax.
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
19 January 2010
10:4538236There are lies, damned lies, and statistics..........
Forgive the allusion, Paul, I'm not saying that these figures are either lies or damned lies! To be frank with you, I don't understand these figures (I think it's the layout), but as I've said on this thread already, it's not so much the fact that toilets cost money to run - we live in a world where nothing is really, truly free - it's the fact that the toilets were closed without notice or consultation. I accept that the facilities have to be paid for, it's the manner of their closure that rankles.
I've said how I feel about it politically, probably ad nauseam to many, but if there is any good that can be salvaged from this disgraceful shambles, the toilets should be reopened, unconditionally and with the same speed with which they were closed, pending the outcome of these finance talks. Sorry, but your assertion that "DDC is working with Town and Parish Councils to protect services within the resources available" doesn't hold water as long as the toilets remain locked. Holding toilet facilities hostage isn't working with the Town Council, it's more akin to holding a gun to the Town Council's head.
True friends stab you in the front.
Unregistered User
19 January 2010
11:3938242Andy, I agree it may be the layout. It is not the way the paper presented the toilet cost breakdown i.e. in table form but the way the pasting presents from the download. If Paul or Howard can adjust it so the figures line up with the toilets identified , it becomes clearer.
As I have posted previously I don't intend to go into some of your points and allow debate on the blame culture to distance the main objective to preserve and keep public services. There are also relationships to be preserved if this issue is to be resolved. I have stated that ultimately as Leader the responsibility is mine.
I could quite easily deal with the political stuff you allude to but that would at this stage not achieve what you want the re-opening of the toilets.
Watty
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
19 January 2010
12:1338243Thank you Paul. We'll agree to differ over this, but at least let's do so with good grace!
True friends stab you in the front.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
19 January 2010
12:1938245I went into the C/centre today to use the looe it cost 20p but they were very clean and a hand wash aswell.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
19 January 2010
13:0038247paul
will have to wait for paulb on this one, he does all the clever alterations.
it does take a scond read to take it in, but then all becomes clear.
vic
where is the C/centre?
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
19 January 2010
13:2538249Paul/Howard have adjusted it now...it wasnt showing the costs next to the toilets mentioned, have now added the cost next to each particular loo for easier absorbtion. The forum doesnt reproduce boxes and lines and so forth that would have been on PaulW's original document, so it can hang in mid air a bit. But it should read better now.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
19 January 2010
14:3338253Howard, the C/centre is the Charlton centre at the bottom of Tower Hamlet`s. Nice to have caught you this morning, and enjoyed the natter. One down, 73 to go.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
19 January 2010
19:0038271likewise colin, i should have worked out that it was the charlton centre that vic was alluding to.
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
19 January 2010
20:1838278Very clever Paul,what a bargain,if DTC take on the toilets,it comes off the DDC proportion of the Council Tax.What that means forumites is if DTC take on the toilets the % of Council Tax you pay will be more,DDC won't give you money back,but because the toilets will be paid for by only Dover residence they will pay more.As the goverment give DDC most of thier money some of this is used.
Paul W you haven't commented on the Public Availabilty Toilets idea used in Perth and other places.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,981
19 January 2010
20:3838280You still dont get it John And theres me thinking you were clever .Dover people will only pay once to the DTC.I assume you have seen the latest budget figures from DDC .Think again and see what choices have to be made .Someone commented to me today re toilet closures and I remarked well people like you and me are having free travel on the buses .Not another word was said .They government come up with these ideas ,free swimming for the over sixties and free swimming to some children .Someone has to pay
Lots of people receiving council tax rebates ,rent rebates .Free advice being given out to people the list goes on and on ..
Unregistered User
19 January 2010
20:4138281John , I sometimes wonder whether you really understand this or you are continually stirring.As you posted earlier you want to make this a politcal issue. Your total grasp of the issue is really disappointing. As you point out Dover will be paying for Dover's toilets they will not be paying for Deal's, Sandwich's, St Margaret's etc. as they presently do. So to be repetitous Dover will only pay for their toilets as others appear to be prepared to pay for theirs. I think that is plain enough.
You seem to have a rosy hue about how much your government suppports local government. Even Labour controlled council's don't agree with you.
19 January 2010
21:1138283Paul
I DO understand what you are saying providing you are in a Parish/Town that has toilets.
There are (I believe) 28 Parish/Town Councils. Not all of these have toilets and they ALL currently contribute to ALL toilets accross the District.
You have posted the cost per household in Dover Town for providing the toilets in Dover. What is the cost per household by each of the 28 Town/Parish Councils.
It is the disproportianate cost that is being levied on Dover Ratepayers that I am against.
I have already posted that it should be the ratepayers of Dover Town that should decide if they can or cannot accept the cost.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
19 January 2010
21:1238284I think Mr Watkins has a good point there, but all I would like to see is the looe open again,we all know it does not matter what pot it comes out of we pay for it anyway,if the D.T.C. do take them over good it will get them open again,but what happens if they do not take them on?
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
19 January 2010
21:3038287At last we have some answers(long overdue) nice that our paulw defends nigel and takes the blame.
ON THE TALKS
Everyone wants the talks to succeed, but at what cost to you and me is of interest.
DDC reduce the council tax, that will be interesting.
If the town council were to take on some or all of the toilets watch the tories next election leaflet about how the town council put up its council tax(but wont mention it was to bail the District council out)
THEN THERES THE GOVT DOSH
Paulw please dont try to kid us all, before ,Labour came in maggie and all that followed clearly said they wanted to starve local govt and did so.
So please don't preach on here about government funding.
Every council leader will always say they need more, and why shouldnt they.
The town council as D Hannant said has to look at all the items the District are washing there hands of including tourism.
So as iv said before, this is just not about the toilets its about;'
1; COST TO US
2; WHAT CAN TOWN COUNCIL DO
3; WHAT CAN TOWN COUNCIL AFFORD
4; LACK OF DEMOCRACY
5; LACK OF CONSULTATION
6; LACK OF VISION
19 January 2010
21:5838294Can it make 20 pages........?
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,680
19 January 2010
22:0038295To be starkly blunt, your average Council Tax payer does not care about percentages of tax take, or "double rating" etc, all they care about is "am I paying more".
As far as I can see we the rate payers of Dover Town are being asked to pay more to maintain a facility that used to be covered by our council tax.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 660- Registered: 14 Mar 2008
- Posts: 3,205
19 January 2010
22:0238298Sticks and Stones,but it won't open the toilets,still not done any research then Paul W on Public Avaliblity Toilets then after our little discussion on the High Speed Train on Saturday.
If you knew what I know,we would both be in trouble!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
19 January 2010
22:0338299keith
i think that you and john are being mischievious here.
the fuhrer has stated in writing here at least twice to my knowledge that the council tax bill will be unaffected by this issue.
the bills hit our doorstep in little more than 6 weeks time, do you think that an untruth would be made so public?
even rebellious susan is sticking up with authority on this one.
with regard to the first line of your post the council leader has made clear(again more than once) that the buck stops with him.
we all realise that local authorities are under funded, it has been going on since the iron lady inflicted herself upon us.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,680
19 January 2010
22:0538301Howard, how can it be unaffected, unless DTC either refuse to take on the toilets and they remain closed or they cut some other budget item. If DTC take the toilets on then they need to raise their precept, thus we in Dover Town wards pay more - simples
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi