Sid, I partially agree with your point of view regarding how long it would actually take UKIP to win a seat in Westminster. We actually increase our share of the vote at every election but, admitedly, it looks like it would take some time to win a seat outright. However, if PR is introduced the whole ball game changes. For example, based on our latest votes received of about one million we would have been given twenty seats. In addition to that we would receive even more votes because many of the electorate would no longer consider that a vote for UKIP would, as such, be "wasted".
Finally, if UKIP can not influence our withdrawal from the EU sooner rather than later, then in time the whole corrupt institution will self-implode anyway similar the old Soviet Union, on which model the EU duplicates itself.
So in a sense Sid your right, in time the EU wont be the issue, but not necessarily because the "anti-European Luddites" have died out. ( although as you know, we are anti-European Union not anti- European, if you get my drift! )
John, I am sure you knew I meant the EU. My neices, nephews and grand-children have no problem with being European. Of course, they have known nothing different, but in that ignorance lies the best hope for the EU. They will strive to improve the EU rather than dismantle it, so, I maintain my view that, in time, the EU will cease to be an issue for the country. Where would that leave UKIP? Stranded without a key policy perhaps?
In a sense Sid you`re right, the younger generations are more likely to be "Pro-EU" simply because they have grown up with it and have known nothing different. Coupled of course with the vast amount of OUR money being spent on EU propaganda purposes in the schools etc. ( similar to the millions of OUR money that was spent on the "Yes" campaign in Ireland. )
The EU have always had time on their side and are quite happy to play the "slow game" in which we are gradually indoctrinated into thinking that everything EU is wonderful as we are absorbed into it bit by bit.
UKIP can see exactly what their game is and that is why we campaign so strongly to get out. Having said that, you will no doubt, have seen Vic`s manifesto postings so you can`t really say that we are a "single issue" party although that`s exactly what the opposition want us to be known as for obvious reasons. So although the EU, admittedly, is a key policy it`s certainly not our only one. I will admit though that if there was no longer a question over the EU then it certainly would be a different type of UKIP in operation.
To summarise, if our younger generations think that they can change the EU for the good then best of luck to them, but the EU will only allow a certain amount of change. Don`t forget that, contrary to the impression they give you, the EU is NOT fully democratic and never will be.
Good reply John, thanks. Just one further question about EU democracy. If my memory serves me correctly the EU operates a form of PR for elections?
Yes Sid, you`re correct. Proportional Representation is used for the European Elections. I don`t think that the EU are particularily bothered as to how we appoint our MEP`s because when they get over to Brussels they don`t have much say in things anyway. It`s an illusion that they "represent" us as their powers are actually fairly limited.
In a nutshell, it`s the unelected and unaccountable commissioners together with other EU bureaucrats that pull the strings. The main function of MEP`s is to simply nod through the massive amount of directives that are churned out on a regular basis. Much of the time, because of the sheer volume, they don`t even appreciate what they`re voting through anyway.
Sorry to drone on!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
an old trick john.
some councils prepare weighty tomes for the councillors to wade through.
stops the elected representatives questioning what is going on, most do not understand what these reports are about, very many do not even try to read the reports.
much the same principle in the european parliament, they have armies of pen pushers continually writing up pointless reports to justify their existence.
Yes, you`ve got it in one Howard.
In addition to that of course we then have the expense of interpreting all the legislation etc., that is thrown at us and we have to implement it, in most cases, whether we want it or not.
But as you say, if they only prepared and issued sensible Directives then they would probably be few and far between and most of the EU Civil Servants would be out of a cosy little number. I wonder how many of the general public realise that there are some 3,000 secret committees that produce proposals for the Directives etc. The MEP`s are not, of course, allowed to sit in or attend these committees. That would never do.
Anyway, I feel a rant coming on so I`d better stop there for the sake of my health!
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
I did think this blog would end, but it does look like we are going to carry on with it,and I am happy about that because we will be voting again soon and we all know that +the the locals in May,I will be standing again for both the Town and District,I am taking a rest and also going to try and get my other knee sorted out so come next year I am up and running again.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
john,its just a myth in wot you say,try watching the euro discusions from the euro parliment,its enough to make an insoniac fall asleep.but there are more serious debates that our meps partisipate in quite loudly.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
vic
i do not see the point of ukip standing for town council, would it not be best to concentrate resources on the district seats?
the reason this thread has gone over 600 is not just your excellent contributions, the subject of the european union is a big issue to a lot of people.
it is hardly discussed in the national media, anyone that doubts the the bigwigs in brussels is laughed off as a "little englander" or worse.
Yes Brian, the MEP`s are actually allowed to speak whilst in the European Parliament. You will usually find that if a propsal is placed for approval the MEP`s are only permitted to make a timed statement of two minutes or less. If the group that they represent is "unpopular" they will be given less time. Democracy in action eh!
In the very rare event that the proposal is not passed then it will keep coming back as substantially the same with some minor variation until it is passed.
Debate, questioning or any proposal of amendments to draft Directives in the European Parliament are absolutely prohibited. You will find that the "elected" MEP`s are little more than a "rubber stamp" body.
I don`t know just what exactly you were watching but if MEP`s were being allowed to ramble on then it probably wasn`t anything of importance to the EU Commissioners as they, and they only, dictate the law.
As an end note, the EU auditors have been unable to "sign off" their accounts for the last fourteen years. Would anyone care to have a guess as to how the accounts for year fifteen fared? ( Clue........the answers quite easy! )
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i had forgotten that one about the books failed by the auditors.
i wonder how many companies would get away with that?
the gravy train rules supreme.
As you say Howard " How many companies would get away with that "? I think we all know the answer! The Conservative David Davis said on this matter " Is there or isn`t there a double-entry accounting system? Because if there isn`t, then it is unlike any other accounting system in the world that anyone respects "
It`s common knowledge that at least 10% of the EU`s massive budget of billions disappears in fraud and mismanagement EVERY YEAR.
When Paul van Buitenen, the then EU-appointed auditor, proved that billions of euros had been "misappropriated" by members of the EU elite the EU swung into action and poor old Van Buitenen was subsequently suspended without pay by the EU Commission, the same body subject to his corruption investigations! Fortunately, he was later vindicated and Jacques Santer`s entire EU Commission was forced to resign. They don`t like to be reminded of that one!
However, fraud and corruption has of course continued under different guises. More recently it was the turn of the EU`s Chief Accountant ( and now UKIP MEP ) Marta Andreasen who suffered Gestapo like treatment because she had the temerity to declare that the EU`s budget was simply " out of control " and " massively open to fraud ". She complained that figures could be altered " without leaving any trace ". For her outspoken honesty she received the full EU "treatment" and was subsequently sacked after making her life a misery. Neil Kinnock oversaw the treatment dished out to this latest "whistleblower" as a warning to future trouble makers.
And so it goes on, and yet not so long ago Dave Cameron told his MP`s etc.,
"Don`t keep banging on about Europe". Well, sorry Dave, but all the time we`re being ripped off left, right and centre by our "friends" in the EU then I think it`s their public duty to keep on about it.
As a final note, I suppose we shouldn`t really be surprised at such chicanery baring in mind some of the main political leaders have a dubious past history that includes well publicised convictions for corruption.
Nice work if you can get it!
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Sadly John, what you say is true - to our detriment.
Officialdom does not like whistleblowers and as you've stated above, there have been a few of them and they've all been hushed in one way or another.
I'm sure during the election debate, there was mention of how much the EU cost us and I believe it was in the region of £45 million per day - 45 MILLION; multiply this by 365 and it's a tidy sum to come off of our debt mountain: we'd still be trading with the EU of course, just not controlled by it - and if we are not in the EU, we can control our own immigration.
Roger
Roger, there are rules for trading with the EU that will affect us if we withdrew. Therefore we probably wouldn't have the trade we have now.
The EU is still relatively young and growing and obviously there will be growing pains and things that need correcting. Just look at how many amendments the Yanks have to thir constitution, demonstrating it takes time to get it right. At some point, rather like the U.S. we will get beyond EU Presidents based on the same critria as Dover's Mayor, i.e. "Who's turn is it now?", aka "Jobs for the Boys".
Once we get beyond that stage and find oursleves a strong President things will slowly change for the better. It may take a century to acheive, but no journey starts without taking the first step.
Hi Roger, Yes you`re correct, the agreed cost of being a member of the EU is indeed around £45 million a day and this figure will of course continue to rise steeply. Well. someones got to pay for the large increases in pay and expenses that the bureacrats have just voted for themselves. Funny that, I thought we were all having to tighten our belts!
Hi Sid, well I can see we will probably never agree on the EU question but I would just like to make the following points in reply to your post.
Of course there will be slightly different rules for trading with the EU if we withdrew from it. But as I`ve mentioned previously, trade is a two-way thing and they need us more than we need them. They are not going to cut off their noses to spite their face are they?
If you have any fears about us "going it alone" then I don`t see Norway or Switzerland having any problems. In fact their economies are probably doing better than any other EU country. Once outside of the EU we would also be able to expand our trade with the rest of the world.
The EU will obviously try to infer that leaving them will be positively bad for us whereupon in actual fact it will be bad for them, as a massive part of their budget contribution will suddenly disappear.
Sid, it`s obvious from your posts that you believe in the EU and that`s fair enough, we all have our own opinions, but I fail to understand why anyone should be happy with the loss of our independence and sovereignty to what amounts to a foreign power. Are you really happy to be ruled by a foreign body that is unelected, unaccountable and virtually impossible to remove?
Futhermore, these same people have, of course, voted themselves the protection of immunity from any sort of prosecution should that be attempted at any future stage. I wonder why they think they might require that?
Are you happy that we lose complete control of our borders, our ability to make our own laws, the loss of our justice system and own financial regulations and the ability to provide the power and energy that we want for our own country? I could go on.
We have already lost the ability to control our own fishing and farming industries, business regulation, postal services, environment and waste disposal. (The latter of which increases our Council Tax) Again, I could go on.
Finally, I don`t think you can really compare the EU project with that of the USA, for starters they`re all one people with mainly a collective history.
Still, I suppose it wouldn`t do if we all had the same opinion!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sid, your e.u. versions are false. Young people often do not realisethat the e.u. system of dictatorship is the cause of the downfall of our society and of so much misery, and for families being destroyed, and it is not right to play on the innocence of young people, when we who are elder know full well the causes of the systematic destruction of our society. We are the ones who have to save the young people from this disaster which they have found themselves in, because in the future, they would hate the e.u. more than we do, if they find it is too late because by then the e.u. tyrants have totally taken over and supplanted us.
Alexander, the young aren't as stupid as you'd have us believe.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
John Buckley
I am one hundred percent of the same idea which you just styled out! I also tried explaining on a thread just posted that young people should not be used now in an election campaign by any e.u. agenda party by putting words in their mouths which they never said, such as "children love the e.u.!"
They might not realise as we elder people do that the e.u. is the covering tent for a lot of nasty things that go on in the name of home-eviction, mass unemployment, mass immigration, mass bankruptcy.
Sid: The young are not as stupid as you would have us believe!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i think that sid is saying the same thing alexander, unless i have misinterpreted his post.
