The funeral today
- 19 April 2013 17:43226075GaryC - I told you. They benefited from what accrued to the whole economy. The mining areas have not been in an isolated time warp.
- 19 April 2013 22:49226096Gary I went to school with the last generation of miners in Kent-I stood by them then-and I'll stand by them (and you) now. Norman Tebbit can get on his bike.
Another pit near Rotherham at Maltby closed a couple of weeks ago and Daw Mill went about a month ago. What is going on? The government should be making moves to preserve our core fuel supplies.
'We are all Thatcherites says Dave' - speak for yourself mate.Never give up... - 19 April 2013 23:03226097No - the mining areas have not been in an isolated time warp -they were simply isolated. Why else would Thatcher order the stock piling of coal at collieries prior to a deliberate confrontation. What happened back in the 80's was an orchestrated emasculation of the mining communities(no not just the union). The government illegally colluded with the police to prevent national picketing and ultimately shafted families nationally.
Gary's experiences on the picket lines at the hands of the met police are harrowing to say the least.Never give up... - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
19 April 2013 23:23226099Of course Gary barry w has got it wrong
Those involved in the mines at the time know(as lesley states) that a point was being made and it was about the protection of vast communities.
Unless you were involved it is probably hard to understand how maggie at the time, and the Police teamed up no matter
how to take on the miners.
Unions have not been tamed, they just re group.
Scargill got his tactics wrong, but maggie destroyed communites across the country whether they supported her during the dispute, or after.ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - 20 April 2013 06:47226120Richard Moffatt wrote:No - the mining areas have not been in an isolated time warp -they were simply isolated. Why else would Thatcher order the stock piling of coal at collieries prior to a deliberate confrontation. What happened back in the 80's was an orchestrated emasculation of the mining communities(no not just the union). The government illegally colluded with the police to prevent national picketing and ultimately shafted families nationally.
Gary's experiences on the picket lines at the hands of the met police are harrowing to say the least.
Of course coal was stockpiled, it was the right and sensible thing to do. Scargill's intentions were known and Mrs T had the foresight to prepare. The country could not afford to be blackmailed by extremist Union thugs any more and they had to be beaten, You need only to look at the record of the 60's and 70's to see what needed to be done.
It was Scargill who called the strike.
It was Scargill who did not have a national ballot because he feared he would lose it therefore making the strike illegal.
It was Scargill who relied on bullying and intimidation to force the regions that did not support him in his regional ballots out on strike.
It was Scargill who was responsible for the hardship miner families endured. - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
20 April 2013 06:50226122what ever barry,she caused strife and you know it. - 20 April 2013 07:01226123Then I believe we agree then Barry-it wasn't the fault of the mining communities. Please refer to my #43Never give up...
- 20 April 2013 07:28226125As I said previously Scargill was to blame and used the miners as pawns in his political ambitions.
- 20 April 2013 09:44226144the whole thing was just a game, "secret" documents showing details of pits to be closed found their way to scargill who screamed his head off, the government then denied everything, scargill played into their hands and called a strike.
that was exactly what thatcher wanted. - 22 April 2013 17:14226468BarryW
Let's say that this or the next government decides that the legal tax loopholes that you correctly pride yourself being an expert at, for offering your clients, are crippling this country's economy and decide that the only way to eradicate this problem, is to close down all business's like yours.
Would you simply shut the doors and hand them your keys and blow them a kiss?
Or would you fight tooth and nail, to save yours and your family's future?"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum" - 22 April 2013 17:36226471Take a look at Dovers decline since the closures of the mines and the ferry losses, the closure of the Engineering works, the removal of our armed forces from the Old Park and Connaught barracks, the downgrading of our hospital and now Pfizers.
You cannot keep taking away, put nothing back and expect life to go on as normal. For each of the jobs lost in these industries count again those lost in the supply chain providing the support needed for those businesses to operate.
You do not need to be an economist to do the sums. - 22 April 2013 17:51226474i can remember when pits were being closed and decent redundancy pay outs were had, many of the miners bought a mini cab or took over a pub.
the problem was that due to mass unemployment in pit villages few could afford to go the pub or take a cab. - Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
22 April 2013 18:28226481and that's a knock on effect of a government shut down. - 22 April 2013 20:05226495Scargill did have a strike voted mandate to oppose all pit closures.
At the time there was an agreed independent pit review agreement that needed to be followed, this never happened
The UK coal industry was under attack from cheap imported Australian opencast mining,
The Germans and other European nations protected there industries from this cheap coal, helping to preserving there mining industry, to this day.
Much like we preserved UK farming and the finance industries with tax's brakes and subsidies today.
The madness in the bulldozing of and destroying of access to the UK coal reserves will eventuality be shown to be very short sited conservative party policy. - 24 April 2013 12:51226833Its a shame this goverment won't follow suit.
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2013/04/22/Scottish-Coal-liquidation-prompts-effort-to-revive-shuttered-mines/UPI-55751366603560/"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum" - 24 April 2013 13:44226842GaryC wrote:BarryW
Let's say that this or the next government decides that the legal tax loopholes that you correctly pride yourself being an expert at, for offering your clients, are crippling this country's economy and decide that the only way to eradicate this problem, is to close down all business's like yours.
Would you simply shut the doors and hand them your keys and blow them a kiss?
Or would you fight tooth and nail, to save yours and your family's future?
Such a lot to say to this....
The premise is false.
1/ My job is as an independent financial adviser looking after client interests, part of which is ensuring they do not pay more tax than they legally have to and I have a duty of care imposed on me by the government through their appointed regulator to do just this. Most of my work relates to advising on investments including pensions and tax is a significant issue in that. What you think of as a tax loophole is tax planning, something that will always be with us and we are all entitled to do.
2/ My business is owned by me and is not a state run enterprise so the government (or regulator) cannot close me down unless I were to breach laws and regulations. This is something I am careful not to do. I am paid by my clients for delivering a service that they value and are willing to pay for, if they will not pay then I will close.
3/ It is impossible for any government to close all avenues of avoidance. That would suggest a level of horrifying power over our lives that would change the whole nature of the UK into a oppressive authoritarian state. Besides which many of what you call loopholes are specifically allowed and enabled by parliament. This is not what you refer to as a problem, unless that is you believe in the power over the State over our lives to such a degree in which we do not own any rights to our private property and our income/money is just that.
Something I was reminded about yesterday at a CPD seminar. This is about a wide variety of ways we can use trusts to help save or eliminate inheritance tax liabilities. These are long, well established mechanisms that are not threatened in any way by the new GAAR laws. Dennis Healy, Labour Chancellor of the Exchequer, he who said he would tax the rich until the pips squeak - you may recall him, actually said that Inheritance Tax is a voluntary tax - indeed it is and saving people from suffering that is a job required of me by both clients and the regulator.
4/ In my industry we have had to learn to be flexible, to move with the times and to change how we work and our processes accordingly. In January a massive change occured in my industry, one well overdue and one that brought the whole industry into line with the basic principals on which I established my business model in 2004. I always make sure I am ahead of developments and as long as I am able to respond to my clients and fulfill their needs in a way that they are happy to pay for then I have no concerns such as you raise.
If, however, I were not able to do so then I would go out of business - simple. It is something that everyone who runs a business has to contend with.
Contrast that to the mines and miners.
Often opposing the closure of mines that were no longer viable.
Going on strike a the drop of a hat without any concerns about the impact it would have on the profitability of their mine and their employer.
Being kept going with subsidy in the face of cheaper foreign competition.
Restrictive trade practices that added to costs.
These are the issues there and there is no comparison. If I lose profitability, if I fail to adapt, if I fail to satisfy my client needs then I would go out of business - simple. These are the risks I take and accept as the miners should have accepred greater responsibility for the state of their industry and should not have driven it into the ground with absurd pay demands and failing to adapt to new practises and ways of working. - 24 April 2013 16:09226851BarryW.
The question was hypothetical about you and your business, not a platform for you to sing your praise's.
It could have applied to any anyone, but I think you know that, don't you?
The question, in case you were unable to grasp it, was what you would do in similar circumstances.
But please don't bother to answer it again; we will just get chapter and verse what a great chap you are and how your business is keeping the world of finance spinning, with your herald of trumpets ringing in our ears to the tune of Tina Turners "Simply the Best"
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum" - 24 April 2013 17:30226877GaryC - it was a full and direct answer to your point.
It is summarised simply.
Running a business I could go bust if I was not flexible, if I charged too much and was too greedy, or if I did not adapt to changes.
Ultimately - the miners did not do any of that and so they paid the price. I would deserve to if I applied the same attitude as the miners.
I could not give a more straight answer. - 24 April 2013 17:38226881Barry, can we talk about the mine owners for a second.
Why did they stop hauling expensive machinery out of the mines which was previously repaired of sold for scrap?
Why did they create a stockpile of coal?
Why did they enforce an overtime ban but at the same time state that production was low?
This was not a strike about wages, it was about the destruction of a viable industry. - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
24 April 2013 17:58226884Lesley
please dont expect the answers you deserve
you to gary
this is barryw you are asking lolALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS