Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Alexander, for the last time, the meeting was called by six of the towns electorate, as is their legal right, to call for a referendum on a question to be decided at that meeting. The meeting was conducted in an orderly way that allowed the PP to present their case for said referendum, had they gone into every detail the meeting would have gone on far longer than anyone would have wanted. When the motion was put for a vote, by a member of PP who happens to be a councillor. the law states that their can be no more discussion and a vote has to be taken. This was done, despite Vic's attempts to ignore the requirement even when it was explained to him, and more than the legally required ten of the electorate voted for a referendum.
DTC are legally obliged to organise, with the help of DDC, the referendum as called for at the meeting for 23rd March. It is not DTC's referendum, it is a referendum called for and by the electorate of Dover. Once called the referendum has to be held, that is the law, and once counted the results are made public. There is no legal obligation for anyone to pay any further attention to it, although a high turn out and large majority, one way or the other, will send a very clear message. Were the PP to wait until a decision is reached, if went in favour of DHB's proposal, DHB are ready and waiting to push ahead with the sale and it would be too late for any other option.
The motion as stated only calls for a no to the privatisation and transfer to the community, it does not call for the abolition of the royal charter nor specify how such transfer is to be achieved. The sole aim as stated in the question is to halt DHB's sale of the port business into private hands and open discussion on options to put the port into the hands of the local community.
As it stands at the moment the only option before the government is DHB's privatisation plan. If you are happy with that then continue, otherwise please do read what people are posting rather than just reading into it what you want to.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Chris if that is for the last time I shall eat my hat.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Well time will tell, who is right and who is wrong,but if it goes your way and in afew years time the port does go bankrupt,who pays then will the stakeholders have to pay up.,it is all one very big risk,
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Peter, it is my last time answering. Strange that two UKIP members are decrying the referendum when their new local manifesto calls for referendum's on everything, and to make them legally binding. Nowt so strange as folk.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Chris, my complaint will be against the P/p of Mr. Charlie Elphicke and Co., not the DTC.
However, you are implying that I am in favour of DHB privatisation, which I am not.
You also state that the Government has only one option, which is to accept the DHB privatisation of the Port of Dover.
You have also stated on the Forum, about a week ago, that there won't be money for a spate of other referendums, and although I think this was extremely unwise of you to do, as it could easily make it look as though you are conditioning the process of democracy so that people who you quite clearly agree with get their referendum through and others don't, I will not take that issue into my complaint. But it would be wise of you to be very carefull not to repeat such statements, that is, on the one hand openly being in favour of the cause of a group to make a referendum and explaining away their cause along with them, while discouraging other groups from asking for a referendum to be held.
If there is no money for other referendums in Dover, you would be well advised to have this statement made officially through a neutral person in the Town Concil, who has not openly declared their support for the P/p group of Mr. Elphicke and Co.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
alex
i respect you have the right to air your viewpoints but you have fallen into the trap of not listening to basic facts.
a) it is not charlies port
b) the government has two options not one
furthermore town councils have limited funding, a spate of referenda would leave them without the funding to carry out their normal day to day tasks.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Go back and read my post 503 and that will tell you just about that,as a cllr you should see it from both sides and read all the posts. As I said the wording on your referendum is wrong,it shows in favour of your so called Public port,and that is why I and UKIP do not support it. And the town council was also wrong to support it ,do not tell me the the council acted as a independent body in all this when it was a former mayor of Dover going round the streets asking the public for its support +the same cllr puting it forward at the town hall,and the Town council own mayor was chairman of the whole meeting.
Howard the Goverment have 3 options as I said in post 503.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Howard, alright, my apologies, it's the people's port trust, set up by independent people.
But one thing I will underline here, going by the last post of Chris and a few other posts that have ben made by a few people, namely members of the People's port (p/p) independent trust or their supporters, the Government is being depicted as a despicable group (or shall I say trust?) that will all over a sudden proclaim that the decision has been made to privatise Dover Port following the DHB proposal, and that within 5 minutes DHB will have sold it.
Do you not think that this is the image of a bad Government?
I believed the Government (the past one which initiated the public consultation and the present which continued it), and put my trust in the Government to be transparent, fair, and to carry out the process of public consultation.
The replies I received from London also indicate that it is going this way, in a fair and transparent way, hence I do not believe what Chris wrote, when he implies that Gov. will jiust make a decision and DHB will have sold the Port before you or I can say Jack Robinson.
If I believed Chris, I would be an anarchist, and would go about despising the Government, and never take part in a public consultation, on the grounds that it is all a falacy from the Government.
People like Chris, who fanatically support the p/p plan, seem to hate the word public consultation, they do not seem to recognise its existence, and the impression they are giving of the Government, as far as I am concerned, is wrong.
In fact, I will, in my complaint about the people's port trust, specifically ask if a decision could be taken and finalised all in one day, and the Port of Dover sold off immediately.
This whole case about the Port of Dover and the p/p campaign has become more and more a reason to ask oneself if the Government really is that despicable as people like Chris paint it out to be, a Government that one can not trust!
I will of-course make known the reply I receive to this queston after I have included it and sent it.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
You are totally right, Vic, in that post there above mine.
The idea about a parish referendum was brought up in the Dover Mercury about a month ago, because I read it there (if it wasn't the Dover Express that is).
It specifically stated that six signatures are required. No doubt the P/p people read it too and got the idea from it, and decided to have a referendum along the lines put forward by the p/p trust, rather than a referendum asking the people of Dover if we want to vote for the Port to remain a royal charter trust.
Neil and Chris try to make believe that they are not trying to abolish the royal charter (after reading from you or me that they are trying to do exactly that).
Ha ha, they are on about a privately set-up trust, called the p/p trust, with which they want to piurchase the Port of Dover, which IS a Trust, a royal charter trust.
Chris himself mentioned that there would be a purchase of Dover Port by this p/p trust, when campaigning for it, as a Town Councillor.
Then they explain away that only who pays 10 quid will be members of it! So what people's port is that? The port of who pays 10 pounds!
I WON'T pay ten quid to be a member, nor take part in their referendum!
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
alex/vic if thats your opinion fair enough,but only time will tell whos right and whos wrong.
as for the referendum i will be voting.
if ukip is a party of leagly binding referendums you should vote yes or no,if you dont vote then you are going against your partys wishes.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Some will always read into things only what they want to read.
[URL][/URL]
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Like Chris (and many others) I attended the Dover Harbour Board's Port Consultative Committee on Thursday and very interesting it was.
A few points that were discussed there, were:
Bob Goldfield said that the delay is bad - bad for decision-making and investment and bad for Dover - what ever the decision was to be, make it as soon as possible; when it has been made, there will be extensive consultation.
It was re-iterated that the traffic is coming and gradually, in ever-increasing numbers, so staying still is not an option.
Some figures for consumption:
RHV up 6%
Tourist traffic up 3%
Market growth is now the same as the period between 2000 an 2008
Cruise ships 145 for 2011
DHB's main capital projects are:
Traffic Management Improvements - £6.5million
Extension to Pier E - £4.0million
Major Berth refurbishment - £18million
Replacement of number 6 Berth - £6.1million
Assembly Parks D and E capacity improvements - £2.8million
Major Paving Framework - £7.6million
Cathodic Protection - £1.6million
Heritage Works - £10.5million
Waterfront Regeneration - £6million
Electrical Generator Upgrade - 0.7million
It was stated that Phase 1 of T2 will be 200 million
I haven't added it all up but that's a lot of millions and a lot of investment in the Port. It's not all going to be done this year, but some will be started this year and all needs to be funded.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
interesting stuff roger, rather a lot to digest, i note the comments about the delay in reaching a decision.
a few weeks back our own fuhrer paul made this point to a government minister at a meeting about the pfizer problem.
i hope they are taking note.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
something that occurred to me after seeing charlie and neil was how we vote.
normally we get a polling card to take along, there will not be time for this to be arranged.
what form of identification do we need to take to the polling station?
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Good stuff Roger. I can entirely agree that delay in announcing a decision is not good and have been pressing the Government on this point.
As previously stated, DPPT has modelled for capital investment in improving existing port infrastructure and enabling works GB£100m over the first five years of our business plan.
Traffic growth having returned to similar levels as experienced in the run-up to the crisis indicates, from the current traffic base, that a T2 development with additional berths as envisaged by the Harbour Board would not become commercially viable for a private investor until well into the 2020's and with any private investor explicitly excused any obligation to develop T2 facilities under the DHB proposal and DHB, once any sale is completed, ceasing to exist as an organisation one must view any commitments from them in this regard in that light.
If DPPT were to be successful we have already committed to a complete review of the T2 plans promulgated by DHB which will be open to full and meaningful consultation. The final revised plan, as developed with the full involvement of the communities of Dover and through advice from relevant expertise is planned to require funding to commence works at the same time as the first tranche of our bond issue matures and is sold back to the markets. As I explained earlier in this thread Roger, funding for significant new infrastructure projects comes from this source and is affordable long term finance without dilution of ownership.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Howard, proof of ID presented at the polling station should be sufficient...although thinking about it, I've forgotten my polling card so many times when going to vote and have always just been asked to confirm my name and full address verbally to the person checking us off without additional ID being required.
That said, we are working on trying to get a polling card of sorts out to everyone entitles to vote in time. Our problem has been that the actual date was not confirmed to us until Friday and it will not be until Monday that the list of all polling stations will be released to the public by DDC and DTC.
Roger
Interesting if Bob Goldfield quoted the figures you have placed above.
DHB traffic statistics as quoted on their website show:
Year 2010 compared with Year 2009
RHV -9.1%
Tourist Vehicles +1.6%
For the first two months (Jan/Feb) 2011 compared with 2010:
RHV -2.5%
Tourist Vehicles -5.5%
The COMBINED Dover and Eurotunnel figures show the following trend for 2010 v 2009
RHV +3.6%
Tourist Vehicles +5.4%
In overall volume terms Dover is at around the 2005 level.
Whilst the RHV (Tunnel and Dover) market has shown a growth for the first time since 2007 at 3.6% this is in fact just below 2007 (when it was 4.35% growth).
This does beg the question when is T2 is "Commercially" required as larger (but fewer) vessels using Eastern Docks.Indeed "ship entries" at Eastern Docks in 2010 was down by 905 (-4.4%) on2009. The first two months of this year shows the "ship entries" down 5.2%
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
No "if" there Pat, they are figures from documentation sent out before the PCC meeting.
I didn't think that Forumites would like me to reproduce the full documentation, but I can email it to you.
Roger
Yes please Roger as certainly the figures are at variance to those shown on their website which I again checked last night before posting 537.
I also again checked Eurotunnel website for their figures so my 537 is what both DHB and Eurotunnel have released in the public domain as at approx 2200hrs on the 12th March.
Many thanks
Pat
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,885
Whichever set of figures is correct they will be affected by the increase of traffic because of the Icelandic volcano problems at the airports.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
