howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the wording of referendums are always disliked by some.
the way i see it is if we don't vote we cannot complain later.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,897
Who is scaremongering?????????????
There is no point reading or posting on this subject again some are too blinkered in their outlook.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Yes we should have alocal referendum,with the right wording,lets just stop there and go back ,who put is referendum forward,who done the wording of the referendum,Well it was the supporters and the back up team of the Publics port plan. If we are to have alocal referendum than it must be done by a independent team with all the 3 ways (1) Sell of the port by the DHB.
(2)Sell of the port to the Publics Port plan.
(3) the port to stay as a Royal port under the royal Charter.
That way the public can vote as They see fit,and that is the way it should be done,and voting open to all in the The town and the Parishs of Dover
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I really don't know how often certain people will be told the facts and actually take notice of them before it sinks in, if ever.
This thread has run its course and is no more than a couple of people ignoring reality to peddle their tediously inaccurate pre-conceived ideas. this is just damaging their credability in the eyes of those who do read and take notice of what is said.
What I find encouraging is that we have seen here a coming together of people from a wide range of political views and none, to speak and act in the best interests of Dover first and foremost. The People's Port critics cannot detract from that.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
there is no doubt there has been some cross party support for the peoples port proposal , just as peter says there are a numer of govt persons not in favour of the proposal and need convincing
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
You are essentially right there, Vic, and also in your previous post when noting the wording about "Dover community". Barry, and also Peter, the case will be passed on to higher authority, so you can do the explaining
there!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
higher authority alex?
i hope you don't mean who i think you mean, he may be omnipresent but he cannot be everywhere at once.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
I'm quite happy for the highest authority to examine DPPT, search the hearts of the members and reveal their truest intentions because nothing that hasn't been said and made public would be revealed.
The communities of Dover will own the P/P Trust (leastways everyone that has become a member of DPPT) and every member will have a stake and a say in what it does and will be able to keep the board of directors (both appointees from local organisations and community directors nominated and elected by the membership) accountable. Local businesses and local expertise will be sourced and used whenever possible and available, benefiting our local economy. The "money men", as someone has described them, just want their low risk long term investment interest and debt repaid, they don't want ownership or a say in the management of the port. As has been said many times, the money is not in the form of equity, which entails a say in ownership, but in the form of debt, which does not entail a say in ownership. The simplest analogy is this: Does your mortgage lender tell you how you can decorate your house, do they tell you how to dispose of your household income once you've made your monthly payment to them, do they tell you what improvements you can make to your property, are they involved intimately in the distribution of your household budget? I know that my mortgage lender doesn't and neither will the "money men" with respect to our port.
Vic...to the owners go the benefits...take another look around our town, talk to the young people who have no job and few prospects locally at the moment or to the young people, our brightest and best, who are looking to leave as soon as possible for what they view as better prospects elsewhere, then tell us that the people of the communities of Dover are currently the owners, because if we are already so, then as owners we have got a pretty poor return to date. DPPT is all about making the people of the communities of Dover owners in fact and effect so that the benefits of ownership flow to where they belong, to the economy and people of the communities of Dover.
If people don't vote, either yes (obviously I hope yes) or no, then they are absenting themselves from the democratic process that has been put in train. The most democratic consultation that Dover has seen in generations has been enacted. I wish that I could vote, but due to the legislation that we currently have to work with I can't because I am on the electoral roll at Eythorne. The lead role in this process, for good or ill, has been given to Dover and the people of Dover Town, it is an amazing chance for leadership and I am trusting that Dover will grasp and use it to the fullest extent.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Never have there so many been taken in by so few.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a good explanation from neil on post 508.
vic
what have we go to lose?
the town gets all the fall out from the port with the traffic problems and ancillary stuff.
what we get in return at present are a falling number of jobs associated wth port activities, an attractive seafront and not much else.
people come from far and wide to work on the ferries because they can afford to with changing shift patterns.
should your idea of the port staying a trust, i can only see stagnation.
should dave and cohorts decide on openly selling to the highest bidder the situation would be marginally worse, they would have no incentive to keep the seafront and piers pleasant as they would only be interested in profit.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
This is like having a gun to your head,
it's going to be privatised anyway so vote for the peoples port which has as many unanswered questions as has the DHB got in the way it runs the port.
So whilst i have no wish to oppose the peoples port plan, i'm put in a position where by i'm no great fan of the DHB nor am i convinced the peoples port has the answers, so for me over the period of time leading up to referendum i will have to give it all thought,
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
BarryW #504 hits it on the head. This is no more, now, than uninformed propaganda which by its nature reduces the credibility of a few and demonstrates the challenges to be faced. And those who hope to benefit by a bit of political attention-seeking should be aware of how much they have damaged themselves.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i have to disgree bern, all views have to be heard so that people can reach a decision.
neil made the point a day or so ago that he welcomed the anti and doubtful views as it gave him a chance to answer any questions and also keep the issue at the forefront of people's minds.
words to that effect anyway.
I agree Howard, but there is no discussion going on here, just repeated banging of the same drum.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
It has all become a bit circular. The debate has hardly moved from basics because some just prefer not to believe the truth.
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
At yesterdays Port Consultative Committee meeting DHB repeated the assumption that the referendum was being funded by DDC, he was corrected, and requested that people ask where the money for T2 and the improvements (already underway) to the Eastern docks was to come from. It was also announced that work planned on the Western Docks for after T2, involving regenerating unused land is to go ahead.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
HOWARD;
I agree, i have formed a view at this time, and hold to that i have thanked all those geezers who have put the case, that doesn't mean i have to agree.
thankyou chris for your last posting, shows DHB are not doing any better
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
If anyone feels strongly enough in favour of the Peoples Port to consider delivering a few leaflets in their own neighbourhood, please email me.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Bern, post 512 is not correct, I believe no-one on this thread has ever tried to do political attention seeking regards the Port of Dover, and the fact that various UKIP members - if this is who you refer to - are against the privatisation plans of Dover Port, does not justify your statement.
Vic has written in the past on the Forum that he opposed the privatisation independently of his being a UKIP member, and I made my representation to London before joining UKIP.
Neil, you have explained many things after the Town Hall meeting, that otherwise were not known to the members of this Forum and to the public in general, which is good of you to have done.
However, this does prove the fact that the whole issue was very unclear before and during the Town Hall meeting, which your explanations since then have demonstrated.
These issues are still largely unclear to the public in general.
Also, some points you made are contradictory, as I pointed out to you previously, and adding to this, you seem not to grasp some essential points that I have made on this thread and the front page.
I am referring the case to a higher authority, first of all because the reasons given for the referendum are not correct, and are misleading.
The requirements of Constitution and Democracy do not leave space for P/p to call a referendum between the two options presented by them. P/p cannot just put words in the mouth of the Secretary of State for Transport and claim that the decision has been reached to sell Dover Port and Dover!!! oversees!, and that therefore the people of Dover should vote for the P/p plan to prevent this.
Dover Harbour Board IS a trust created by royal charter, and your referendum, if it should have been called at all at this point, should have been for a vote whether the people want to have the royal charter abolished and the port and all DHB property transferred to the private P/p trust.
Further more, as Vic pointed out, the P/p IS NOT Dover community, and has no legal authority to present itself as such!
The Constitution regards the Port of Dover is the royal charter that created Dover Harbour Board, and Democracy requires that you do not put words in the mouths of Government ministers to scare people, and do not mislead people through wrong information.
I have written many times here that the public consultation process is still on-going, and that there are no official statements on the part of the Government that the representations are being shoved aside. The Government cannot do this, as it has pledged to proceed with transparency and through public consultation.
After a decision of the Government, or of the Secretary of State, you could ask for a referendum, ONLY when you know the official facts.
The inside knowledge that Peter has recently claimed to know of from the Government can be harmful to the reputation of P/p, and for your own benefit I would advise you to discourage such argumentations, as they are very frustrating and, as a precedent, could lead to any misleading information being spread about in the name of a democratically elected Government! Such statements can be legally challenged!
I have advised Chris on the Forum, as he is a Town Councillor, that DTC review the whole issue, and have given sufficient explanations.
There is no way that P/p is going to bulldoze down Constituion and Democracy unhindered, and as I have already written to you on the Forum, I am part of the public consultation, and am awaiting word from the office of the Secretary of State of Transport concerning a decision, also in view of all the representati0ons that have been made.
There is a long list of grievences against the conduct of the privately set-up people's port that I wish to make known to a competent office and have already made note of statements found on the P/p website and in local news-papers.
I believe to have written very clearly my points here over the past week or so.
Peter - I tried to email you a few times but for some reason it bounced back - I'll leaflet! Please email me and I'll fit in some bona leafleting!
Alexander - you cannot tell me it is incorrect! There is without doubt some political attention seeking going on, not you perhaps, but it is going on.