Referendum on the EU.

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• Guest 640

  • Registered: 21 Apr 2007
  • Posts: 7,819
  25 October 2011     07:48133146
  #101       report
  Another cartoon just in from Reg. It is by Dave Brown again of The Independent
  and right up to speed. Im doing the honours again for Reg
  
  * * *
  
  

  

  
  
  ``Flashman shoots himself in the foot............and his whip is not working``
  email: dover7@msn.com
• Guest 696

  • Registered: 31 Mar 2010
  • Posts: 8,115
  25 October 2011     09:16133163
  #102       report
  Barry, I don't want to repeat myself too often, as the evidence I've already presented on your blog: D. Cameron's biggest concern is to get eight more countries into the EU, so he is hardly going to get Britain out.
  
  As highlighted in PaulB's post further above, he also said that Britain's priority should be to solve Europe's problems and to solve the Eurozone's problems.
  
  That what you claim, and that what Cameron says, with regards to Britain's future, are two completely different things.
  
  The fact is, if anyone wants Britain to remain in the EU and vote accordingly, they have three parties to choose from, one of which is the Conservative Party. By voting for this party, they will be giving their vote for an expanded EU to boot, which will include Turkey and seven other states, and to an EU from which the Tories have no intention of withdrawing, an EU whose problems the Tories intend solving by denying a referendum in Britain.
  
  There is no way, Barry, that you can spin this fact into the opposite.
  
  If anyone wants out of the EU and wishes to vote accordingly, there are a few parties, one of which is UKIP.
  None of the three mainstream parties will ever give a referendum on the EU. Last night's vote has established this fact beyond all doubt.
  
  It's up to individuals to choose which way they want, the cards are on the table for all to see, and there is no space left for a campaign-spin.
  So I am afraid I will not be able to believe you anymore, Barry, when you write that the Conservatives "will bring Britain out of the EU", for all that I do find your posts on this topic fascinating and enjoyable.
  Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
  Rule Britannia!
  Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ
• howard mcsweeney1

  • Location: Dover
  • Registered: 12 Mar 2008
  • Posts: 62,352
  25 October 2011     09:24133166
  #103       report
  more than half of the blue back benchers voted against or abstained on the motion, a matter of concern to dave.
  
  maybe he will learn a lesson and not try to ride roughshod over them in future.
• Guest 716

  • Registered: 9 Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4,010
  25 October 2011     10:59133174
  #104       report
  Lord Tebbit warns Cameron he will face more rebellions and the vote might trigger a `Stalking Horse`from the pack of back benchers if there is anyone good enough.
  
  Motion proposer David Nuttall MP said the people are saddened and disillusioned at being fobbed off by the political elite and that this Parliament is becoming ever more impotent.
  
  Another failure of judgement by Flashman.....................This problem will not go away.
• Guest 715

  • Registered: 9 Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2,438
  25 October 2011     12:23133185
  #105       report
  Sorry to post a link but Cameron on Brown in 2007, http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/eu_referendum/article273758.ece hypocrite!!
  Audere est facere.
• Guest 640

  • Registered: 21 Apr 2007
  • Posts: 7,819
  25 October 2011     12:32133187
  #106       report
  Had this just in from the UKIP guys. Many thanks to Vic who forwarded the mailing on to me.
  
  We cant show the full list from all parties as would be too big, but here is the list of Tories who voted with the government against having a referendum. Charlie Elphicke is in there...voting against the public having a say on membership of the EU.
  
  ****************************************************************
  
  
  Dear All,
  
  Please find below a list of all the MPs who last night voted against the motion for an EU Referendum.
  
  This is a great opportunity to 'name and shame' those MPs in your region by sending a letter to their various local newspapers. As you will know, most copy deadlines (if they appear on Friday) will be midday tomorrow.
  
  A couple of robust paragraphs will do the trick.
  
  
  Thanks,
  
  Duncan
  
  * *
  
  AGAINST
  208 Tories voted against the motion, along with Mr Stewart and Mr Weatherley who voted in both lobbies.
  Nigel Adams (Selby & Ainsty), Peter Aldous (Waveney), James Arbuthnot (Hampshire North East), Richard Bacon (Norfolk South), Tony Baldry (Banbury), Harriett Baldwin (Worcestershire West), Stephen Barclay (Cambridgeshire North East), Greg Barker (Bexhill & Battle), Gavin Barwell (Croydon Central), Guto Bebb (Aberconwy), Henry Bellingham (Norfolk North West), Richard Benyon (Newbury), Sir Paul Beresford (Mole Valley), Jake Berry (Rossendale & Darwen), Nicola Blackwood (Oxford West & Abingdon), Crispin Blunt (Reigate), Nick Boles (Grantham & Stamford), Peter Bottomley (Worthing West), Karen Bradley (Staffordshire Moorlands), Angie Bray (Ealing Central & Acton), Julian Brazier (Canterbury), James Brokenshire (Old Bexley & Sidcup), Robert Buckland (Swindon South), Aidan Burley (Cannock Chase), Conor Burns (Bournemouth West), Simon Burns (Chelmsford), David Burrowes (Enfield Southgate), Alistair Burt (Bedfordshire North East), Alun Cairns (Vale of Glamorgan), David Cameron (Witney), Neil Carmichael (Stroud), Rehman Chishti (Gillingham & Rainham), Greg Clark (Tunbridge Wells), Kenneth Clarke (Rushcliffe), Geoffrey Clifton-Brown (Cotswolds, The), Therese Coffey (Suffolk Coastal), Damian Collins (Folkestone & Hythe), Oliver Colville (Plymouth Sutton & Devonport), Geoffrey Cox (Devon West & Torridge), Stephen Crabb (Preseli Pembrokeshire), Glyn Davies (Montgomeryshire), Jonathan Djanogly (Huntingdon), Stephen Dorrell (Charnwood), Jackie Doyle-Price (Thurrock), James Duddridge (Rochford & Southend East), Alan Duncan (Rutland & Melton), Iain Duncan Smith (Chingford & Woodford Green), Michael Ellis (Northampton North), Jane Ellison (Battersea), Tobias Ellwood (Bournemouth East), Charlie Elphicke (Dover), Graham Evans (Weaver Vale), Jonathan Evans (Cardiff North), David Evennett (Bexleyheath & Crayford), Michael Fabricant (Lichfield), Michael Fallon (Sevenoaks), Dr Liam Fox (Somerset North), Mark Francois (Rayleigh & Wickford), George Freeman (Norfolk Mid), Mike Freer (Finchley & Golders Green), Richard Fuller (Bedford), Edward Garnier (Harborough), Mark Garnier (Wyre Forest), David Gauke (Hertfordshire South West), Nick Gibb (Bognor Regis & Littlehampton), Cheryl Gillan (Chesham & Amersham), John Glen (Salisbury), Robert Goodwill (Scarborough & Whitby), Michael Gove (Surrey Heath), Richard Graham (Gloucester), Helen Grant (Maidstone & The Weald), Chris Grayling (Epsom & Ewell), Damian Green (Ashford), Justine Greening (Putney), Dominic Grieve (Beaconsfield), Andrew Griffiths (Burton), Ben Gummer (Ipswich), Sam Gyimah (Surrey East), Robert Halfon (Harlow), Philip Hammond (Runnymede & Weybridge), Stephen Hammond (Wimbledon), Matthew Hancock (Suffolk West), Mark Harper (Forest of Dean), Richard Harrington (Watford), Rebecca Harris (Castle Point), Simon Hart (Carmarthen West & Pembrokeshire South), Sir Alan Haselhurst (Saffron Walden), John Hayes (South Holland & The Deepings), Oliver Heald (Hertfordshire North East), Charles Hendry (Wealden), Nick Herbert (Arundel & South Downs), Damian Hinds (Hampshire East), Mark Hoban (Fareham), Kris Hopkins (Keighley), Gerald Howarth (Aldershot), John Howell (Henley), Jeremy Hunt (Surrey South West), Nick Hurd (Ruislip, Northwood & Pinner), Margot James (Stourbridge), Sajid Javid (Bromsgrove), Gareth Johnson (Dartford), Jo Johnson (Orpington), Andrew Jones (Harrogate & Knaresborough), David Jones (Clwyd West), Daniel Kawczynski (Shrewsbury & Atcham), Simon Kirby (Brighton Kemptown), Greg Knight (Yorkshire East), Eleanor Laing (Epping Forest), Mark Lancaster (Milton Keynes North), Andrew Lansley (Cambridgeshire South), Pauline Latham (Derbyshire Mid), Jessica Lee (Erewash), Phillip Lee (Bracknell), Charlotte Leslie (Bristol North West), Oliver Letwin (Dorset West), Brandon Lewis (Great Yarmouth), Ian Liddell-Grainger (Bridgwater & Somerset West), David Lidington (Aylesbury), Peter Lilley (Hitchin & Harpenden), Jack Lopresti (Filton & Bradley Stoke), Jonathan Lord (Woking), Tim Loughton (Worthing East & Shoreham), Peter Luff (Worcestershire Mid), Anne McIntosh (Thirsk & Malton), Mary Macleod (Brentford & Isleworth), Patrick McLoughlin (Derbyshire Dales), Esther McVey (Wirral West), Francis Maude (Horsham), Theresa May (Maidenhead), Paul Maynard (Blackpool North & Cleveleys), Mark Menzies (Fylde), Stephen Metcalfe (Basildon South & Thurrock East), Maria Miller (Basingstoke), Anne Milton (Guildford), Andrew Mitchell (Sutton Coldfield), Penny Mordaunt (Portsmouth North), Nicky Morgan (Loughborough), David Morris (Morecambe & Lunesdale), David Mowat (Warrington South), David Mundell (Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale & Tweeddale), Dr Andrew Murrison (Wiltshire South West), Bob Neill (Bromley & Chislehurst), Brooks Newmark (Braintree), Jesse Norman (Hereford & Herefordshire South), Stephen O'Brien (Eddisbury), Eric Ollerenshaw (Lancaster & Fleetwood), Guy Opperman (Hexham), George Osborne (Tatton), Richard Ottaway (Croydon South), Jim Paice (Cambridgeshire South East), Owen Paterson (Shropshire North), Mark Pawsey (Rugby), John Penrose (Weston-Super-Mare), Claire Perry (Devizes), Stephen Phillips (Sleaford & North Hykeham), Eric Pickles (Brentwood & Ongar), Chris Pincher (Tamworth), Daniel Poulter (Suffolk Central & Ipswich North), Mark Prisk (Hertford & Stortford), John Randall (Uxbridge & Ruislip South), Andrew Robathan (Leicestershire South), Hugh Robertson (Faversham & Kent Mid), Amber Rudd (Hastings & Rye), David Ruffley (Bury St Edmunds), David Rutley (Macclesfield), Laura Sandys (Thanet South), Lee Scott (Ilford North), Andrew Selous (Bedfordshire South West), Grant Shapps (Welwyn Hatfield), Alok Sharma (Reading West), Alec Shelbrooke (Elmet & Rothwell), Mark Simmonds (Boston & Skegness), Keith Simpson (Broadland), Chris Skidmore (Kingswood), Chloe Smith (Norwich North), Julian Smith (Skipton & Ripon), Nicholas Soames (Sussex Mid), Anna Soubry (Broxtowe), Caroline Spelman (Meriden), Sir John Stanley (Tonbridge & Malling), Andrew Stephenson (Pendle), Rory Stewart (Penrith & The Border), Mel Stride (Devon Central), Graham Stuart (Beverley & Holderness), Desmond Swayne (New Forest West), Hugo Swire (Devon East), Robert Syms (Poole), Edward Timpson (Crewe & Nantwich), David Tredinnick (Bosworth), Elizabeth Truss (Norfolk South West), Andrew Tyrie (Chichester), Paul Uppal (Wolverhampton South West), Ed Vaizey (Wantage), Shailesh Vara (Cambridgeshire North West), Theresa Villiers (Chipping Barnet), Ben Wallace (Wyre & Preston North), Robert Walter (Dorset North), Angela Watkinson (Hornchurch & Upminster), James Wharton (Stockton South), Chris White (Warwick & Leamington), Bill Wiggin (Herefordshire North), David Willetts (Havant), Gavin Williamson (Staffordshire South), Rob Wilson (Reading East), Jeremy Wright (Kenilworth & Southam), Tim Yeo (Suffolk South), Sir George Young (Hampshire North West), Nadhim Zahawi (Stratford-on-Avon).
  email: dover7@msn.com
• Guest 683

  • Registered: 11 Feb 2009
  • Posts: 1,052
  25 October 2011     12:54133188
  #107       report
  This is the first debate I have watched for any length of time and I was struck about the absence of accuracy in the comments made by many MPs. No wonder there is so much confusion over issues and no wonder disillusionment and disengagement are at such high level amongst the electorate.
  
  It began with a standard scare story from David Nuttall (Bury North. Con) stating at Bury Hospital that despite Tory electoral pledges and massive local opposition the children's department, including the maternity ward and special care baby unit are to close, "and one of the driving forces behind the closure plans is the effect of the European working time directive". The Manchester Evening News,
  http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/news/health/s/1441451_burys-hospital-births-to-end-as-midwife-led-unit-at-fairfield-hospital-rejected however, gives reasons much as we are hearing about Buckland BUT makes no mention of EU working time directives.
  
  Philip Hollobone (Kettering. Tory) said:
  "Nine out of every 10 jobs in this country go to foreign migrants, most of whom come from the European Union".
  
  I have found no evidence to support this claim. There is a Daily Mail account of Frank Field's earlier, similar statement but there seems to be no way of corroborating this. Indeed 'Fact Check' reports on its investigations that:
  
  "The Office for National Statistics does produce figures for how many jobs are in the economy, but these are not broken down by the nationality of the worker, so there is no way of knowing what the proportion of new jobs going to foreign-born workers actually is"
  
  There was plenty of scathing comment on the 'Social Chapter'. The crux of this Chapter being the:
  "promotion of employment, improving living and working conditions, proper social protection, dialogue between management and labour, the development of human resources with a view to lasting high employment and the combating of exclusion."
  
  If your points of reference are solely monetary then I can see that such aims would be an inconvenience but I suspect that most people would be glad to sign up to these if they knew about them.
  Wayne David (Caerphilly. Lab) made an impassioned speech which resonated with me in which he said:
  "The European Union should not just be about a single market for business—it should also be a social Europe for people".
  
  Of course there is room for improvement but attempts to achieve this should be from being at the centre of the EU not standing on the periphery.
  
  One of the better comments of the evening came from Anne Marie Morris (Newton Abbot. Con):
  
  "Does the right hon. Gentleman therefore agree that, in the words of Gandhi:
  "Evolution of democracy is not possible if we are not prepared to hear the other side"?"
  
  Honest and open debate would help formulate an action plan for the EU. We didn't get that last night and I doubt we will in the future.
• Alan Taylor

  • Location: Dover
  25 October 2011     14:59133201
  #108       report
  D. Cameron's biggest concern is to get eight more countries into the EU. these are countries that were once ruled buy Russia or other Governments they will not contribute anything to the EU just Take and we will end up paying more. I thought MPs were our servants and we put them in power to look after us seems Not But why don't they listen to us or take some notice.
• Guest 649

  • Registered: 12 Mar 2008
  • Posts: 14,118
  25 October 2011     15:05133202
  #109       report
  Like most MP,s once they are in they do their own thing,or what the party says.Our MP as I said is trying to get to the top of the ladder,but he will come down at the next G/E.
• howard mcsweeney1

  • Location: Dover
  • Registered: 12 Mar 2008
  • Posts: 62,352
  25 October 2011     15:15133204
  #110       report
  will be interesting to see how the local party faithful view how charlie voted and whether it has any effect on his popularity.
• Guest 696

  • Registered: 31 Mar 2010
  • Posts: 8,115
  25 October 2011     15:25133207
  #111       report
  One questionor two should now concern us all:
  What will the Government - indeed the Parliament Coalition of Conservatives-LibDems and Labour - do with our money to solve all Europe's problems?
  
  How much more suffering and cuts will we have to undergo until the three-party government has solved the eurozone problems?
  
  A legitimate question, and not to sure if the MP Charlie Elphicke will give an explanation.
  
  How will it affect Dover and Deal, the constituency?
  Cameron has declared that he is interested in solving all Europe's problems, so he won't be solving ours then!
  Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
  Rule Britannia!
  Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ
• Guest 655

  • Registered: 13 Mar 2008
  • Posts: 10,247
  25 October 2011     17:51133225
  #112       report
  Howard - Speaking as one of the most avid anti-Europeans he did exactly the right thing and I am 100% behind him and I am quite sure so will most people.
  
  I find it quite amusing at the moment how some people in the media etc are going into hyperdrive trying to claim all sorts of problems etc that simply do not exist. Some very wild imaginations are around including here on this forum.
• howard mcsweeney1

  • Location: Dover
  • Registered: 12 Mar 2008
  • Posts: 62,352
  25 October 2011     18:48133234
  #113       report
  sounds like you are whistling in the dark barry, flash has made himself look like a complete doughnut whilst the rebels are seen as heroes for standing up for their beliefs and representing the views of the people that put them in parliament in the first place.
  
  if such an event had happened within the reds camp you would have been crowing very loudly.
• Brian Dixon

  • Location: Dover
  • Registered: 23 Sep 2008
  • Posts: 23,940
  25 October 2011     19:21133241
  #114       report
  sounds like a right fiasco this dose,and evan barryw getting his y-fronts in a twist.
• Guest 696

  • Registered: 31 Mar 2010
  • Posts: 8,115
  25 October 2011     19:49133243
  #115       report
  The following should illuminate Barry: on Sky News online, where the articles can be found on the recent EU referendum vote in Parliament, just open a few articles, read the comments below - just a few of them - and see for yourself that wherever there is a comment in favour of remaining in the EU or in favour of voting against the referendum, the votes from the other readers range from 0 to 1.
  
  Almost all the comments are words of disgust towards the ways the PM has trodden down democracy, people saying we should leave the EU.
  These comments get many votes, hundreds times as many.
  
  In fact, on Sky News comments you can vote on each comment with a mouse-click.
  
  Shouldn't this explain everything?
  Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
  Rule Britannia!
  Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ
• Guest 716

  • Registered: 9 Jun 2011
  • Posts: 4,010
  25 October 2011     20:55133263
  #116       report
  # 105..............So..................It was Gordon Brown`s fault..................
• Guest 705

  • Registered: 23 Sep 2010
  • Posts: 661
  25 October 2011     22:28133281
  #117       report
  Got to agree with you here Barry-there is no sense in exasperating the EU situation by opening us up to the unknown during these times of instability-we couldn't leave the EU overnight anyway. As I've said previously the whole shebang is showing all the signs of collapsing all by itself so why get stressed and waste effort? We should be concentrating on avoiding the fallout when it happens. So then guys-who's for 'Splendid Isolation'?
  I think Charlie Elphicke is a good bloke who really has put his constituency first,especially on port issues- he is passionate about Dover-just as passionate as Vic and Alexander... and from where I am standing that is really saying something!
  Never give up...
• Guest 696

  • Registered: 31 Mar 2010
  • Posts: 8,115
  26 October 2011     02:16133290
  #118       report
  Richard, you say that the EU will collapse anyway.
  Do you think that, at a referendum, the masses would vote to stay in knowing that it will collapse?
  
  What Barry is saying is, that the people do not relise that the EU will collapse, and that the majority would vote to stay in.
  
  What he's saying is that only the Conservative Party can lead the people out of the EU, so we must all vote for the Tories.
  
  What Cameron says, is that the EU must expand and that we must allow him to dedicate all our resources to solving Europe's problems.
  
  
  Two different versions from two Tories!
  
  If Barry is right, that the Tories want out of the EU, then Cameron must be speaking a blatant untruth!
  
  To me it is clear: Cast-iron Dave wants to solve all Europe's probems, he wants to become king of kings in Europe, introduce a gold dinar... set up a tent in Trafalgar Square to receive dignitaries from all over Europe...
  
  Col Dave, does the analogy ring a bell?
  Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
  Rule Britannia!
  Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ
• Guest 696

  • Registered: 31 Mar 2010
  • Posts: 8,115
  26 October 2011     02:40133291
  #119       report
  
  Chanters, Drums and Drones Potty Time http://youtu.be/99fMqpjnXYA
  Rule Britannia!
  Kent First http://youtu.be/04F3mAP3fV4 Keep banging on http://youtu.be/qYCU_SKmkGQ
• Keith Sansum1

  • Location: london
  • Registered: 25 Aug 2010
  • Posts: 23,942
  26 October 2011     08:17133305
  #120       report
  barryw no one expected anything different than you to fudge over charlies voting,
  
  charlie probably did do what he thought to be the correct thing for local people,i but this is realy about was this an error of judgement?
  local people would have been looking to see if there MP was amongst those rebelling against the cobbled together govt.
  
  your dave was always going to have his skin saved by the labour/lib dems
  so realy why he forced through a 3 line whip was a crazy move for him
  thus bringing people out of the woodwork like tebbitt whos stating that because your dave stopped listerning this could be the build up to a leadership challenge.
  
  the cracks are opening up all over, whether you want to see them or not baz
  ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS

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