Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Richard, there are no billions of grant aid in the EU. All grant aid is taken from the contributing member-states and disposed of immediately.
There are only debs, state debts, insolvent treasuries, personal debts too, and hundreds of billions of pounds/euros in exposure that will never come back to the banks and treasuries that lent them out.
The EU may well collapse anyway, and as Camers will hold out to the very last if he can, he'll no doubt collapse with it, and finally we can have a General Election.
Fact is, that few people would vote for an MP who voted against an EU referendum if the EU then collapses.
People will vote for candidates who predicted the EU's collapse and who were for a referendum.
On this note, I am not worried what Camers does Monday, because we won't be seeing him in Parliament anyway after the next G.E., so the bigger a fool he makes of himself now, the sooner we'll see the last of him.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
alexander
the voting is recorded and so mp's could not sneak in and vote one way or another
therefore as they know there whips will watch them closely
frightening them enough not to rebel
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Their constituents are also watching them closely, Keith.
If the MPs fear the whip in Parliament, then they will feel the whip of the electorate at the next G.E.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
alenader
many of these mp's sit in seatswith big majorities unlikely to be overturned
but i share your optimism but don't think so many will rebel
just a handful me thinkd(if any)
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
The Dover UKIP officer Mr B Kidd done a long email to our MP about todays vote on the EU,I have forward that letter +the one we got back from the MP to the HQ of the Dover Forum.,I am hoping that it will be printed out into this post. Thank you.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
looks like charlie is completely underwhelmed by the idea of a referendum.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Correction Howard - underwhelmed by this particular proposal and quite rightly so.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
A very well argued and sensible case has been put forward by Nick Boles on a ComHome blog - he is saying basically what I am saying in my blog but in a much better way.
http://conservativehome.blogs.com/platform/2011/10/nick-boles-mp-conservatives-need-to-win-an-election-before-we-can-get-the-renegotiation-we-want.htmlhoward mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
courtesy of the telegraph.
A strongly eurosceptic Foreign Secretary said such a vote would also "create additional economic uncertainty" if the motion was passed, adding it was "the wrong question at the wrong time".
It comes as the Prime Minister faces the biggest rebellion of his Premiership.
The Prime Minister has infuriated right wing Euro-sceptics with Downing Street's handling of the European Referendum issue and may now face opposition to other Government moves from his own MPs.
A weekend of furious lobbying by Conservative whips failed to win around rebel MPs.
Tonight, at least 60 Conservative MPs are set to defy Government pressure to vote in Parliament for a motion calling for a referendum to decide whether Britain should leave the EU. Mr Cameron will be forced to rely on the backing of Ed Miliband to block the calls.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
AS MENTIONED BY VIC ABOVE in post 65
Here is the correspondence between C Elphicke MP and Brian Kidd UKIP Officer.
At the bottom is Mr Kidds email to Charlie..the reply from Charlie at the top.
Many thanks Vic for the info...
"EU REFERENDUM MOTION IS RUBBISH!"...says Charlie
**********************************************
From: ELPHICKE, Charlie <charlie.elphicke.mp@parliament.uk>
Date: 23 October 2011 16:25
Subject: Re: THE E.U DEBATE.
To: brian kidd <briankidd.deal@gmail.com>
Dear Brian,
Thank you for your email. As you can imagine, I have given a lot of thought this weekend to our relationship with Europe.
First, what do people want? They say they want to get out of Europe. When I ask does that mean no free trade either, they tell me "no - I want the Common Market we signed up for" rather than the monster/octopus the whole thing has become.
And I have to say I agree with that. Free trade without the baggage. The baggage being all these laws, meddling, cost, corruption and general interference. Interference, like the social chapter, that is now holding us back from getting our country in shape to grow. So it's clear we need to recast our whole relationship fundamentally.
This is the position I adopted before the election and communicated to people in the election. A fundamental recasting to get free trade and lose the rest of it.
Now, we have a vote on a multi option referendum. One option to stay, two options for less Europe. It's clear to me that the less Europe vote will split. It's also clear to me we do not need a referendum to tell the politicians that we want the Common Market rather than the octopus. I am also very aware that there is no majority in Parliament for what we all want as Labour and the Lib Dems are pro European.
Why do I write these things? Because like people in Dover and Deal I am clear on where we want to get to but also practical and hard headed. I want to *see* change, not just bang on about it.
In view of this my conclusion is first that the referendum motion is rubbish as it will split the less Europe vote. Second I have joined in tabling an amendment that says the Government should immediately renegotiate to get us less Europe and them put a clear, detailed plan to a referendum. The Government are against that amendment, but I will vote for it anyway. If the amendment is not successful I will vote against the motion itself as we should have a clear choice, not a multi option choice that will favour pro Europeans.
As I hope I have explained this whole business is a complete mess. From the drafting of the motion to the way this entire row has carried on.
The whipping and issue of "rebellions" matters not to me. As you probably know I have successfully defeated the Government in a vote on the future of the port. The only Government defeat this Parliament so far. This is because I believe in putting constituency first. I am very mindful that the priority of most people locally is to get a proper hospital, secure the future of our port, get more jobs and money and get a fairer share for Dover and Deal.
That may not be as highbrow as our relationship with the EU, yet they are the things I care most about because I care about our community above all other considerations. These priorities are and remain my priorities as they are the priorities of our community.
Now I know that what I say will make no difference to how you vote, but I feel it right to give you a full explanation of my thinking.
Best wishes
Charlie
---
Charlie Elphicke MP
Member of Parliament for Dover and Deal
******
On 21 Oct 2011, at 10:20, "brian kidd" <briankidd.deal@gmail.com<mailto:briankidd.deal@gmail.com>> wrote:
Mr Elphicke.
I read in the press that the scheduled debate on the E U referendum has been brought forward from the 27th of October to the 24th of October.
The reason being that there will be less time for the "pro referendum" groups to marshal their forces.
If this is the case this is a thorough disgrace! As for Cameron and the other "leaders"trying to dictate how MP's vote on this issue is also shameful!
Everyone knows that all of the main political party leaders are determined to evade these issues and Deni the voters and tax payers their democratic
rights to have their say and yet we hear Cameron, grandstanding about how proud he is of Britain's roll in the Libya affair and how the people of Libya
can now build a new democratic country. If this isn't the height of hypocrisy I don't know what is!
I have signed the "People's Pledge and will find out how you voted on this issue Mr Elphicke.
I am asking you to "Do the right thing" by your constituent Mr Elphicke and stand up to be counted on this issue.
Brian Kidd. Deal.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Thank you for that Paul,as you all can see that our own MP will not vote for the Referendum that is going back on what he said at the G/Election,also he said at the time that the Port should not be sold off again going back on his word,The p/p is the same as the DHB plan it is a sell off of our .
port
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Vic - I suggest that you should stop misrepresenting what Charlie says and what he said in the election. Try reading it and try thinking a bit
Charlie is spot on about what he is doing on both the EU and the Port and I am 100% behind his clear thinking on the issues.
No-one hates the EU more than me but the motion before the House is not the way forward and is utter nonsense. If you want out of the EU then we must make sure we find a real way out not some gesture that does not more than demonstrate the strength of feeling against this monstrous organisation.
Read my blog as I try to clarify the matter a little.
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Barry
in your blog you refer to the fascist EU superstate. Are you referring to the small group of right wing extremists (a Latvian SS group amongst them) that the Tories have allied themselves to for this cause?
I would also like to ask our MP who he is referring top when he says:
"First, what do people want? They say they want to get out of Europe." There is a small vocal group calling for this but some interesting reading about Mori shows:
"In September 3% of people counted Europe as an important issue facing the country, which is typical of the last five years. When placed alongside issues like the economy, immigration, crime, health and unemployment people simply do not care about Europe".
It's topical now due to all the media hype but actually isn't the issue that exercises the majority of the population at large.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
You know exactly what I am talking about Mark and not that pathetic and discredited point you made.
The dictatorial EU Commission and its total disregard for democracy and freedom. We have all seen the way they work when we peasants do not do what they want - rename a constitution a treaty so it does not have to be put to a vote, ordering votes to be retaken etc.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I too thought, as soon as the EU motion came up in Parliament, that the three questions on a referendum would split the vote in favour of pro-EU supporters.
A referendum should have only two questions: in, or out.
The motion on an EU referendum itself, with three questions not two, with it's evident vote-splitting characteristics, came from Parliament members, and was not what the e-petition asked for.
The e-petition, with well over 100,000 signatures (there were various such petitions actually, including that of the Daily Express) asked for a referendum on the EU, and this means whether we should be in or out, two questions and no third option.
So from the start, the motion on an EU referendum being debated today in Parliament was hijacked by MPs, in order to slit the anti-EU vote and favour the pro-EU supporters, and is to all effect rubbish!
Sky News has a poll running today on wether now is the right time to vote on leaving the EU, and 84% say yes!
We need a referendum on the EU with two (2) questions: to stay or to leave, and not 3 questions.
This is in the spirit of the e-petitions for a referendum, which have been hijacked from the start in Parliament.
The result of all this pro-EU policy on the part of the PM Cameron and Parliament in general will lead to a massive exodus of support from the Tory Party and it will be a great boost to UKIP, as many former Conservative supporters are now supporting UKIP.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Just keep dreaming Alexander. All UKIP has ever achieved is aid and abet the EU fanatics.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
No Barry! You were telling us only last week that the LibDems were in favour of an EU referendum, but I read everywhere else that they are to vote against it today.
You do not seem to realise that the PM Cameron is a staunch EU idealist and supporter, not because he needs the LibDem support in the Coalition, but because he believes in the EU as it is now.
He would only oppose any further integration with the EU, but wants the present status to remain, and to be widened to other countries, including Turkey, which means furthering the present-day superstate and committing Britain to more immigration.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a lot of selective statistics here.
mark and alex are both right in the bits they have chosen, yes the vast majority would choose to leave the present e.u. and yes hardly anyone has the issue uppermost in their minds when deciding how to vote at general elections.
just peter and a few others.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
In or out,that is all there need be,that should have been the vote,
or in this case a Yes or a no.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
This release is from the Public Sector Executive Newsletter and is right up to the minute..quoting interviews from earlier today.......just in
*********************************************
24/10/2011
MPs are set to vote tonight on a referendum on the UK's future relationship with the EU, in a non-binding vote that the Government will definitely win - but which has still exposed a deep fault line in the Conservative Party and angered many of its backbenchers.
The motion, which calls for MPs to vote on a referendum in which the public would vote on whether the UK should stay in the EU, leave it, or renegotiate our relationship, has proved very controversial, but with Labour and the Lib Dems likely to vote against the motion along with virtually the whole 'payroll vote' of Government ministers, it should fall.
Number 10 has put a three-line whip in place, forcing Tory MPs to vote with the Government, but scores of them have indicated that they will rebel - including some junior members of the Government who would have to resign their positions.
Prime Minister David Cameron opposes the public vote, as a commitment to the EU is part of the Coalition agreement, which agrees to "ensure that the British government is a positive participant in the European Union, playing a strong and positive role with our partners".
Cameron wishes to focus instead on working to solve the Eurozone crisis, saying: "I don't think this is the right time to legislate for an in-out referendum.
"I think this is the right time to sort out Europe's problems, sort out the Eurozone problem, defend your national interest and look to the opportunities in the future to repatriate powers back to Britain."
Sir Malcolm Rifkind, the former Foreign Secretary, said that while the EU was in the middle of a crisis, it was the wrong time to consider holding a referendum on membership.
He said: "Whatever level of enthusiasm you have or don't have for the European Union it is the wrong motion, it is the wrong time, and it is the wrong subject. For us to be involved in this sort of navel-gazing at this moment on something that isn't going to happen."
But Labour leader Ed Miliband told the BBC's Politics Show: "It's no wonder that his backbenchers are disappointed, because he has been pretending for a long time that he is one of them."
George Eustice, a Conservative MP, said: "The reason the Government has got a bit of a problem with its backbenchers is there is just an impression and a feeling, rightly or wrongly it is that the Government just wants to put this in the deep freeze and forget about the issue."
The motion, put forward by Conservative MP David Nuttall, calls for a referendum on whether the UK should stay in the EU, modify its membership, or leave. The Commons debate was prompted by a petition signed by over 100,000 people.
