Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Seems my brick wall is required again....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Not specifically Alex, I was generalising. Of course, as you well know, DHB charge a port toll on every passenger, car, truck, ship and piece of freight that comes through the port.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Definitely Paul
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I'm aware of that, Peter, it goes towards the maintenance of the Port, as by Charter.
That particular toll cannot be invested in the town or elsewhere, as you undoubtedly know,
My question is, would DPPT contemplate raising a further port-service toll for the town (regeneration etc.), to add to the existing toll (which is for port maintenance).
This is an important question, and deserves an answer. Perhaps Neil could also put a word in on this.
(Paul, did you descend from Western Heights
)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
DHB set their tolls (at least in theory) in line with market conditions and in consultation with port users, at a level which will deliver a sufficient fiscal surplus to cover all expenses and provide for future investment. There is no allocation of any particular element of the toll structure to any particular cost centre - with the exception of the toll increases which DHB imposed in order ostensibly to fund T2 and which is the subject of a legal action between DHB and the ferry companies. As that is sub judice I can't comment further on that.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
I'm bit baffled and don't want the issues to be confused with alex's posts.
still find it difficult to understand how local people paying a tenner will have any real influence over people putting in millions.
i'm not anti the peoples port any more than i'm pro D.H.B.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Keith, if I have understood things correctly (in between all the technical stuff) the £10 is towards the set up expenses shares can not be issued until the Port issue is decided.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
i agree jan
but big promises and maybe even misleading statements that it will be a peoples port
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Keith, it's just like having a mortgage on your house. Even if it's a 100% mortgage the building society has no control over what you do with it as long as you pay your monthly instalment and keep it roperly insured and maintained.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Hi Keith, Bonds are not Shares. Bond finance is one of the most efficient ways of raising money for infrastructure purchase and development, so long as the terms and conditions of the bonds are met, bond purchasers have no interest in decision making, strategy or ownership, they want long term predictable income, that's how. The various funds which buy long term bonds are not interested in anything except for a predictable income.
In the simplest of terms; when you buy a house, you get a mortgage and the house is then yours. The mortgage company does not tell you what colour to paint your walls, whether you can convert the attic, build a conservatory, add an extension, etc. The house is yours to do with as you will, the mortgage company is only interested in receiving the agreed payments. In the same way, funds which buy bonds as the financial instruments which are funding the purchase of an asset let the owners get on with what they, the owners, wish to do with that asset and, so long as the agreed payments are met, take no further interest.
So, the bond markets provide the funding, the membership of DPPT provide 4 directors to the Board, who make the decisions on development strategy and long term direction of travel, and are consulted about major developments as previously described.
Before anyone jumps in with a too literal interpretation of the above...the mortgage illustration is just that, an illustration. It serves the purpose of illustrating the nature of the relationship between a successful DPPT and the funds which buy the bonds.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
niel/peter';
that was obviously a planned reply.
anyway i do hope it all comes good for the people of Dover whoever wins
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Jan, as a Limited Company, DPPT can issue shares and each £10 sent in with the share application form and a proof of residence/work has purchased a share in the DPPT. We have been very clear as to what those shares will entitle the shareholder to and also about what happens to the money raised through the share issue if, in the end, DPPT is unsuccessful.
I personally believe, and all the indications lead to the conclusion, that DPPT will be successful, but there remains a chance that we will not be. However, it is my job as Chair to promote DPPT for all I'm worth and to be confident both publicly and privately that DPPT will realise a successful outcome. Those people who have so far purchased shares are the pioneers, people who are willing to take a small risk with a small amount of money to hopefully ensure that the outcome that they would like to see actually happens. I know of many more people who are supportive, but who wish to wait and see what the final outcome is before they commit themselves...success has many fathers, failure is a b*****d
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Not planned Keith, just the simplest way to explain...and an illustration that I have used on a number of occasions. Peter, from a Merchant Banking background will doubtles also have used the same illustration many times during his illustious career.
Great minds think alike - Old fools never differ
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
anyway
as neil says there are a number still uncertain on this one
and this is ne of very few items on the forum where it can be said i have no firm view eithe way at this time
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
£10 seems a very small price to pay to encourage enterprise like this. Those who claim to support Dover might wish to consider that option.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Jan, shares are being issued now, but they are membership shares in the Trust, not equity shares in the business. There will never be an issue of equity shares as the whole DPPT financing structure is based on 100% debt and zero equity. It is primarily that feature which will make the port immune to takeover in the future.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
think iv said my piece
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Now that Keith has a satisfactory answer, perhaps Neil could answer my previous point.
Considering that the existing toll/revenues, call them what you like, that DHB receive through the Port of Dover, are enough for maintenance of the present port infrastructure and the pension pot, but not enough for a new T2 (at least according to DHB in 2010), how would Neil find the money to regenerate Dover, and at the same time pay back the bond debts, which I heard would be in the region of £400 million (as £200 million would go straight to the national Treasury under Mr. Elphicke's plan)?
Would Neil propose an extra port toll for the town?
Surely, this is the question that people would have asked themselves, and expect a reply to.
How does Neil intend to finance the town of Dover on the existing port revenues of DHB?
How would Neil finance a T2?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
In my representation, Neil, these questions do not arise, as I have supplied the details how all is financed.
In your plans, NOTHING is explained and nothing is clear, other than that there will be hundreds of millions of pounds of debt for the Port of Dover, and that you have no intention of asking the Government for the introduction of an added port toll for the town/district/county.
It seems that some of your believers haven't realised until today that DPPT is not a share company! Sorry Jan!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
From WWW businesslink.gov,uk
Shares and shareholders
What are shares and why are they issued?
Shares represent ownership of a company. When an individual buys shares in your company, they become one of its owners. Shareholders choose who runs a company and are involved in making key decisions, such as whether a business should be sold.
While shares are most obviously associated with the stock market, most small businesses don't go near a stock market in their lifetime. They are more likely to issue shares in their company in return for a lump sum investment. This investment may either come from friends and family or, for businesses that are looking for capital to fund high growth, through formal equity funding finance.
Formal equity finance is available through:
business angel investors
venture capital firms
stock markets
These investors are willing to put up capital for a share in a growth business. The advantage of raising money in this way is that you don't have to pay the money back or pay interest to the investors. Instead, shareholders are entitled to a share of the distributable profits of the company, known as dividends.
Issuing shares in your company on a stock market can provide:
new finance
an exit for founding investors who want to realise their investment
a mechanism for investors to trade shares
a market valuation for the company
an incentive for staff using shares or share options
an acquisition currency in the form of shares
a way to raise your business' profile
For more information on business angels and venture capital firms, see our guide on equity finance.
