It is always about dogma, because we relate to the dogma that will achieve what we want. It is human nature. People always want to "believe in" something, and all the better if it gains them something. This is not said negatively, it is how it is.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 36..........Oblivion?.................Nil desperandum.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
nice try barry but how can businesses create jobs when an intransigent government does not do anything to help businesses?
there is so little spending money around that the only way is further unemployment.
the forthcoming fuel price hike in january will take even more money out of the economy, add to that ever rising home energy bills and we are left a situation where people continue to spend less and less meaning ever more job losses all because of dogma.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Howard - read what I said. I told you how the government should be helping business.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Rumour is..............Government is still on `Plan A`........they are not lisening.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Peter.
"And like the miners' leaders, do the groups you mention have the stated aim of bringing down the Government?"
You are talking about a handful of miners who did, out of hundreds of thousands of miners who did not.
That comment is as wrong as calling all miners "the enemy within". Hundreds of thousands of miners did not want to strike, they just wanted to keep their pits open.
You can shove your sniping and point scoring, it is pathetic and counterproductive.
Bern.
When relating to the strike, I have only the Tories to relate to but you are right to say all parties, all governments, should share the blame, especially for this current situation and we will only get out of this by working together.
For some, that is out of the question or just a dream. That is a shame and also the reason for the mess we find ourselves in now.
They only have their vision, their self importance and their incredible lack of insight, into our future.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
It is my experience that so very much can be achieved through proper partnership working. There are always differences of opinion and different challenges for the different partners, but in all the years that I have worked across sectors, organisations and monoliths the most successful outcomes have been achieved through compromise, honesty and real partnership. And as a businesswoman I can truthfully say that despite considerable experience in various organisations it wasn't until I had to manage my own business that I realised the serious complexity, far greater than I had as a union rep, a public sector manager, or even a NFP director. But if things are kept lean and clean and partnerships respected there is much that can be done.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Then Gary they should not have gone on strike in the first place. Many did not strike and went to work through hails of stones, abuse, bullying and intimidation by Scargill's thugs. Those you talk about should have joined them at work and ignored Scargill who had a political motive from the start.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
"compromise and real partnership" are not in the dna of our political leaders.
just to listen to them at pmq's says it all, cheap shots and soundbites - hardly an original thought between them.
i will stick to my idea of the best brains being brought together to discuss a way foward that actually gets the country back on its feet, political differences can be got around.
the evidence shows that the most left wing and right wing parties form our government at present.
unfortunately not all the best brains are in there.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
here i go then,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Never having been a fan of maggie for obvious reasons without doubt she has to be respected for being a strong leader and looking after her own.
barryw;
whilst labour didnt get it all right, your dave is doing just as much to destroy this country.
so if you move out of your rose tinted glasses it would be fair to say all 3 parties are and have failed us.
on the miners dispute, you are corrcect arthur probably didnt do well in the way he organised his troops, maggie on the other hand learnt from mistakes and was well
able to take on the N.U.M.
barryw
again if you get into the dispute there were a number of n.u.m. intimidated by those that went back to work.
bern;
i'v asked the question before, im all for working together, but maggie made sure in her time of destroying nearly everyone, that the balance is heavily in favour of the employer, now whilst there can be some understanding of this, employers can use this just to make life for the employees that much more unbearable.
where unions exist and have negotiating rights, still the balance is in favour of the employer, nearly giving the unions next to no chance to disagree.
and of course bern when you get to the point of employer/trade union disagreeing then what do you suggest.?
quite important to have a level playing field, and an outcome
i could go on
but finanly to say i wont be watching the film
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Gary you misunderstood me. I was not referring to the working miners, I was talking about the union leadership whose throwing down the gauntlet to Thatcher was like waving a red rag to a bull. Then they led the membership into a charge of the light brigade situation which they could not possibly win.
Lions led by donkeys is a term borrowed from WWI which describes the miners perfectly.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
I have reluctantly, to pick up Keiths point about the balance of power in the employee/employer relationship. I am the first to support the rights of workers and to support workers challenges to unfair practice, but we spend £millions on ridiculous ETs and ITs brought by litigious and irritant unions and employees many of whom were simply not good at what they did and are now looking to get a buck for nothing. If the right paths are followed, as I always do, and the employee is offered appropriate opportunities to upskill, re-train or progress and either chooses not to or cannot do so, can anyone give me a good reason to retain that person in the same job in which they are failing? But even when it is clear that this is the case we still have to expect costly and time wasting ITs and ETs that have no positive outcome in prospect.
Balance of power? That is a very unkind joke!
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
You are like a petulant child who puts his fingers in his ears and shuts his eyes untill it is your turn to talk.
The alternative to me going on strike would have been to allow my pit to close 4years earlier than it did.
Stop quoting Scargill to me, you choose to ignore the facts that I have presented to you before in other posts, which just proves my point about you.
I took as much notice of him than i do of you.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
GaryC, there were many factors in the choice to strike, I know, because we supported the Nottinghamshire miners when we lived there. It was never a clean black/white issue and almost everyone we knew had a different backstory. I am rather glad I can see the shades of grey!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
bern
what are ets and its when they are at home?
Employment and Industrial Tribunals. Important when used properly, as a tool to protect vulnerable employees, but sadly used as a weapon in the class struggle, too often.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
I agree with Bern.
They were borne out of the necessity to protect vulnerable employees against scrupulous employers but are now being abused by the greedy who found loopholes to extract money from the system.
Much like the loopholes in accountancy.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
There you go GaryC - straight to more personal abuse. That is about all you can do, I can imagine you there on that picket line.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
much better to attack the post rather than the poster.
doing the opposite kills the discussion in my experience.
Hey! BarryW! You have so much to contribute and there is so much of what you say that chimes with me - the same goes for GaryC. We can all find a point of contact if we try, but getting bogged down in personal vitriol never helps. This is a good, challenging thread - I am learning a lot from it. Let's not kill it!