Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Paul
I agree with you that the neglect has to be stopped and that money ... mega amounts of money is needed.
HOWEVER, as you have pointed out today CGI don't have that sort of money so why should we welcome them with open arms to build houses and a hotel on Western Heights? There is no logic in that other than to make further building on the Heights easier.
When you go round Western Heights you will see boards to a 'Soldiers Life', the money came out of an EC fund back in 1993 - guess what, I played a part in getting that money!
As I have said above, up until I became ill, at about the same time as the Western Heights Preservation Society (WHPS) was set up, I was heavily involved.
This included writing a DDC commended paper entitled 'Western Heights - A Future.' The paper considered each aspect of the areas built and natural environment, putting forward proposals for future management to unlock the tourist potential.
Later, John Clayton, Director of Planning and Technical Services at that time, that it was reasons beyond my control that the plan was not implemented.
In 1994, IMPACT - The Joint Environmental Initiative of KCC and DDC - started work on the faithful reconstruction of the Grand Shaft. Before work started rubbish - including abandoned cars, washing machines etc. had to be cleared.
Since the advent of WHPS, both my husband and I have supported your cause. Indeed, my husband, who is on the Executive Committee and the Planning Committee of the Dover Society.
Of interest, he was told by the Chairman of the said planning committee recently, that there was an abundance of litter to be found right across the site of the former Grand Shaft Barracks. The following day, he spent two hours there and in his report, he wrote:
' Compared to many areas more central to Dover I found that the density of
litter was very low. I took with me 4 medium sized plastic bags which were
more than adequate to transport all the litter down to the Brook House
recycling site with room to spare. In fact if I hadn't collected a number of
large 2 litre plastic bottles from the area of the Grand Shaft I wouldn't
even have filled 3 bags. I only recycled a total of 80 aluminium cans/glass
bottles which I could easily collect in the areas around Coombe Valley Road
in less than an hour ...'
So why did the Chairman make such a crass comment ... He is a Councillor - be it DTC - but as I have already said today, DDC want to be shut of the Western Heights and there are a number of DDC councillors on DTC.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Sounds entirely plausible comment from the Dover Society.
I and other WHPS volunteers regularly report dumped rubbish in the Grand Shaft/Drop Redoubt areas to English Heritage and DDC, and we recently had to have dumped asbestos removed
We often do rubbish picks and will do so again in the lead up to the open weekends. White Cliffs Countryside Project occasionally do the same.
A couple of months back we had removed over tonnes of mostly brick rubble but also a lot of rubbish from in the Drop Redoubt ditches.
We have had numerous skips on the past filled up with rubbish dumped and until a couple of years ago i had a 'Sita' friend who would regularly collect dumped rubbish.
In fact I can probably point you to numerous tonnes of rubbish in spots that regularly get added to in various places on the Heights and a heck of a lot of unmentionable stuff when DDC do clearances around St Martins Battery
This time of year lot of rubbish gets covered as the weeds take over and come loose in the autumn/winter.
In all a lot of hard work by relative few volunteers and a problems that gets worse as we head into the main summer period each year......
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Re #517 - "You make it clear in your posting above that you are in close contact with the three Directors of CGI "
I will add that I am in contact with their local representative Rob Prince who has attended various presentations, the Roadshow, etc, etc
The closest contact I had with any of the Directors was probably in 1997 when I helped do the cashflow statement for one if their startup companies when I was a trainee at an accountant firm
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Re #517 - do we actually know if DDC have actually incurred any fees ?
I'd imagine with such a huge development the Fees and Charges that DDC can change a developer could actually mean they are charging CGI a hefty sub for planning advice and consultations !
http://www.dover.gov.uk/PDF/Pafees.pdfBeen nice knowing you :)
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
I have tried very hard to not comment on this thread, as there were very varying views through from some members.
I put a short comment which hopefully will help, but with postings on this thread, maybe not lol
Like others i'm concerned over proposals to build on the w.h. but we should all continue to look at the plans/keep up the pressure if required.
to divert away from the thread a little as alexander achieved, the developement at whitfield, many public meetings were held, and the main oppostion group went onto a working party, and were not kicking up to much of a fuss when the plans were coming in.
had the plans for whitfield been so out of touch with locals then meridith(the lib dem cllr up there at the time) would still be there, instead mr meridith was voted out on his parties manifesto on not being over happy with the house build
on the question of bank loans; i dont thnk alexander any bank will loan to any
company/indivual without concrete plans/business plan etc,
and im sure they will have, i feel this debate is more about, do we want to see this developement or not.
there is some merit in the argument of how poor the planning dept is, as iv gone into this whilst running a youth club in the area before and the lack of vision
by the planning dept so wont go there again.
with regard to the israli bank, im sure they welcome your views alexander but do have to weigh this up against the lack of the same opinion across the district(no idea what the population is of dover district)
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
"If Alexander has his way, he wants the place to get overgrown, discourage too many people from going up there but 'ask' some 'body' for millions of pounds to repair some walls"
Paul, this is an unfair statement, as it contradicts what I have suggested on this same thread.
My proposal was to create a permanent work-group of paid people who would do periodic grass/root/weed cutting in return for a salary.
And to ask for a work-group to be set up under the direction of one or more authorities responsible for Western Heigts to carry out maintenance repairs on masonry over a set period of time, until the work is complete. This too in return for a salary.
But you have from the start made clear that your intentions are diverse, not limited to Western Heights.
That your main goal is to urbanise Western Heights, and to stray over to Farthingloe, which is an area of outstanding beauty, and do that place in as well with cement blocks and urban areas.
That you want to do this to attract income to Dover's shops and restaurants, claiming this would create employment for local people in shops and restaurants.
Unfortunately for your theory, I must inform you that Dover's commercial outlets are already fully manned with personnel.
You then went on to explain away that the developer - CGI - in return for building almost 900 houses and a hotel - that would compete with existing hotels in Dover and possibly take their business away - would invest money into repairing neglected parts of Napoleonic defences and some WWII air-defence bunkers.
WHPS have gone way beyond their competence in this proposal, and have proposed to destroy, not maintain, that what they were set up to preserve, and to take out neighbouring Farthingloe while they're about it.
At this point, Paul, you might as well propose building a hotel and some houses in Pencester Gardens and ploughing up Connaught Park to build more of the same!
Alternatively, if your aim is still to reap in cash revenues to Dover's shops and restaurants, why not change place and join the Dover Trade and Commerce chamber?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Here is a paste of your post 90, Paul.
It explains the real reasons for wanting to desecrate Western Heights and Farthingloe.
"The Western Heights are major key to the success of Dover and the rest of it's regeneration, they are needed to assist it from becoming a place to pass through/visit the Castle, to a place that people want to visit of the weekend and for the local people to spend their money in their town.
With a successful DTIZ scheme and the waterfront project, the Castle, Heights, Roman remains and it is all successful
Locals will spend their £££ in town leading to more jobs in town
Restaurants and hotels will thrive as people will stay in the town and generate £££
People will spend money at the tourist attactions £££
People will be employed in the attractions £££
People will stop in Dover at the shops and restaurants £££
People will be employed to work in the shops £££
People will stay in Dover to work and spend their £££ here
A quality hotel will employ people and regenerate the surrounding area
People will be employed to build and service the new attractions and servicing the businesses
The Heights will be protected else it will be gone in another 50 years
MORE cruise liners will stop at Dover else if nothing is done we may have NONE !
Park and Ride works well in other towns, get it in Dover then have physical links between the attractions that are currently rather isolated. You won't need to park on the Heights
It's all about geting locals to keep their money in town and encourage people to come to Dover and stay here"
The reasons you give, Paul, are nothing to do with preserving Western Heights any more.
It's all to do with transforming Dover into a place of mass tourism.
I hope CGI, who you say are following this thread, will see the evidence in your own words.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
By the way, Paul, I can give strong evidence that local people in Dover do spend their money in town. It seems you are giving misleading information to CGI.
I can also give strong evidence that many people do visit Dover, and adding to that, DHB have not stated that cruise liners will not be visiting Dover in the future.
I really do not know where you get your information from, but it contradicts the reality of which I am aware.
I would suggest that CGI, at this point, visit Dover, including some commercial outlets, such as Tesco, B&Q, Morrisons, where people in large numbers do their shopping, as well as Asda abd so many other commercial outlets.
Some of those mentioned here are enormous mega markets that attract people from far and wide. Are CGI being mislead into believing a different reality?
Then I would suggest they visit some of the hotels in Dover, such as Marina and the one towards Eastern Docks. Are these, per chance, not quality hotels?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
As I already wrote, Paul, you should test your commercial gamble with an independent adviser, as it is clear you lack sound advice from an expert in this gamble project.
Our future is at stake here.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Paul(scotchie) sorry mate, tried to help a little but it appears to have gone ovcer alexanders head.
I could go on answering alexanders posting, but not sure hes realy listrning.
but suppose its great for people to have passion about any subject
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
why not give up kieth everybody else has,you know the senario head,bang wall jobby.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
I endorse everything you say Alexander and I take it that the personal attacks on both of us are because those who support the CGI proposal of desecrating the:
i. the National Monument of Western Heights with mixed social and other style of housing and a hotel - when we have more than sufficient conference facilities IN the town and our local guest houses are feeling the pinch
and the
ii. Arthurian Farthingloe Valley, again with mixed social and other style of housing and sundry facilities
are beginning to realise that they are fast becoming a minority supported only by the council, excouncillors et al.
Along with Lara, both Alexander and I agree that the proposed developments serve no benefit for Dover other than:
- Providing council tax to DDC, and
- For DDC to get rid of Western Heights landholdings that were inherited from the former Dover Corporation - who had acquired them to use as landfill for the town's rubbish.
This view, as my post bag shows, is shared by a lot of locals.
As Paul has e-mail contact with CGI's Rob Prince, could you (Paul) ask him to clarify four points for me?
1. Assuming from that are no longer shareholders of CGI (from what is implied in his posting # 513) were Rufus Pearl, David Pearl, Pearl Investment Management Services Ltd and Dungarvan Associates related enterprises?
2. PRC - who were they?
3. Why have the original investors dropped out?
4. This is taken from CGI Company report:
When the Sites were transferred to the Company the Company made use of an Inland Revenue APPROVED (my capitals) Stamp Duty scheme. There is a possibility that this could be retrospectively be withdrawn in which case the Company would incur an obligation to pay stamp duty of £680,000. Can Rob Prince explain what is meant by APPROVED?
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#526-#529
Thanks Keith, I'll go back to my brick wall and not waste any more restating myself !!
Lorraine - I am not a spokesman for CGI - they will be happy to recent any comments direct to them via their website
http://westernheightsandfarthingloe.co.uk/
For anyone interested all the informatoin CGI publishes plenty of informion
http://www.cgiplc.com/
I will finally point out:
"WHPS have gone way beyond their competence in this proposal, and have proposed to destroy, not maintain, that what they were set up to preserve, and to take out neighbouring Farthingloe while they're about it."
As I have said endlessly, these are my own private views, I am not speaking as WHPS. WHPS are not proposing anything !!!!!
PS - how about that letter to Israel Bank..... ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
I can no longer bother reading Alexander's blinkered long winded ramblings, life is much too short.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Jan - I feel like I am in some surreal alternative universe at times !!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Alexander, an English tourism body did a survey a couple of years ago which showed that Dover Castle was a big attraction. It also showed that the castle was seen as a day trip destination with people going to the castle then moving on elsewhere. Dover needs to make more of its other attractions, such as the Western Heights, in order to attract visitors to stay in the town and spend their money.
For visitors to visit in larger numbers the attractions have to be accessible and that costs. Developers will raise the money the require and laws will require them to put money into the surrounds, and CGI have shown a willingness to go beyond this.
Shops that increase their business (by having greater visitor numbers) will need more staff while new shops, and we have plenty of empty spaces, stand a better chance of prospering with larger numbers of visitors in the town.
Lorraine, I would be fascinated to see the historical proof for Sir Gawain, and more so the "Green Knight". Without the skull there is no more Arthurian connection than there is for the Folkestone Worme. I do agree with you on the DTIZ plans, all the talk of 'Park and Ride' for the Whitfield schemes etc. will mean nothing if you are asking people to Park and Ride to a car park.
A National War Memorial WILL attract visitors from around the world. The Western Heights, above the White Cliffs, is the perfect spot for it and will help to preserve the site (and reduce the litter dumping). Look down from that spot and you are looking at the pier where two thirds of the Dunkirk evacuees reached safety. Of course we could do nothing and let all the possibilities go elsewhere after all, it is more fun to quibble than it is to see progress.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
"surreal alternative universe"
To begin with. It is surely only the natural human condition that makes each of us inhabit our own personal "alternative universe". We each see things our way and sketch the future as we wish it to be?
What can be 'surreal' to some, may seem 'entrenched' to others. Pointing-up such differentiations is great fun, but will it ever lead anywhere?
If only there was a way of deciding where the majority view lay. The 'pro' and 'con', the ifs and buts?
I have some sympathy with the view that leaving off commenting until the 'final' proposal is on the table "will be too late", and so I am heartened that there is this to-ing and fro-ing before any such final proposal is laid-out.
But...
Will there ever be a 'forum' for discussion at that later date? Will there ever be a point when the local population shall have it's say, and have the opposing views weighed-up publicly, and be able to concede that -win or lose- the decision is one arrived at fair and square?
So please....argue on. There will be time aplenty to consider whether what you end up with is Boon or Blight.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Been nice knowing you :)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
paul,you may have to leave a note saying either turn up or get sacked.
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Hi everyone. I'm Stuart, a long term reader here who's finally got around to registering. I'm probably going to regret stepping into this discussion, but here goes anyway.
It seems to me that whilst the passions run high on both sides, the argument really boils down to whether the eventual loss of the historical heritage on the Western Heights would be a price worth paying for protecting the natural beauty by stopping all development. For my part, I feel it would be a tragedy to allow the heritage to continue to decline whilst we await a knight in shining armour (presumably not Sir Gawain) to ride in with the hundreds of millions required to make a difference. If we continue to oppose every investment possibility in the hope that a better one will come along soon, we will soon enough find we have little of nothing left to protect. Having said that, I do understand the concern that I think pretty much everyone shares about the nature of any development on WH. Nobody wants to see that area covered in concrete, and I'm sure that will never be allowed. As for the War Memorial, I cannot understand why anyone would oppose that, unless of course they just don't want people visiting the WH.