Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Suppose someone came up with a proposal that put on the WH a development of shops, flats and a hotel which looked just like the military barracks that the council demolished after the last war, and built on the same plots. What then?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,883
Complaints.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
Funny you should say that Peter, because the house that is built up on the hill at the entrance to the GS area, had to be rebuilt in the same way as the original house that had been there previously.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Thanks for the invitation, Lara, I'll make it there for the 7th, and send an email confirmation later on today. Fortunately I've got a whole week's work starting from tomorrow, and a couple of weeks on another job to follow on next week.
But being self-employed I can take time off whenever I want.
My message is simple: remember Whitfield, and how DDC Planning "consulted" with public opinion, and rammed through a complete urbanisation project from A to Z, not a brick less.
And one other message: never trust a political party. They will talk and then do nothing.
Being shy, I won't say much, but will memorise every word said in my photographic memory process received at birth.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
The original house, Beechcroft, I believe it was called, was the dwelling of the Bandmaster for the Grand Shaft Barracks. On 31st August 1940 Major Michael Gordon-Watson, CIC of the Irish Guards shot down a German fighter from the garden - he actually had his own personal AA Bren gun position!
The bible sounds interesting Lara. Did the holder leave a specific date or a battalion next to his name by any chance?
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Not looked at this thread (not been on the forum) for a few days and not missed it (the thread that is).
Lara, for your meeting on 7th if it is during the day why not ask the Town Council if the chamber is free. It's use by community groups etc. is something we do wish to promote. As one of the Town Councillors for the Western Heights I would be very interested in attending, as I am sure Cllr Cowan will be as well.
Lorraine, "Arthurian", really? How about Dan Dare's Dover spaceport on the green heights to the west of Dover?
Alex..........................No, don't want to be banned.
Bern, nice to see you still posting we must meet up for a drink soon.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
As I have said before I am interested in hearing all views from everyone, provided they are sensible, rounded and well thought through. I am posting here personally and will take everything back to the WHPS committe as we want to understand as much as possible from everyone.
On that basis Alexander, I would be interested to know what you have written to the Israeli Bank if possible so that I and other people on here can get an all round view of the issues people see relating to the proposed developments...
Been nice knowing you :)
Chris - you are on! I am going to try to get to the beer fest in Crabble with my son and maybe a daughter or two. Are you going? if not, there's a pub or three in town.......!!
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Hoping to, Guzzler has conned me (that should probably read persuaded) into offering my bar tending services for a few hours.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Hurrah!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, the first people I wrote to were English Heritage, of whom I'm a member.
Then to this Israeli bank. Now that was a month or two ago. I'd have to find the copy.
But, out of memory, one thing pointed out was that there is already a very unpopular Whitfield development for 6,000 houses just outside Dover town in a green area, and some more in the Deal area.
That perhaps they were not aware of these already existing development schemes, and that these were all round utmost unpopular among the local people.
That Farthingloe and Western Heights are green areas of Dover, and to an extent Heritage protected areas under various organisations. That at present, these two areas are relatively free of traffic, peaceful and enjoyable.
That whatever the developers had explained about doing Dover a favour in development, many local people have different views, and perhaps they should take this into account, rather than believing they are doing us all a favour.
Hopefully, the reference to the Whitfield and Deal developments (Sholden and so), will alert this bank to the fact that we are being mass urbanised, and that 6,000 houses in Whitfield just outside Dover would equate to a population equal to Dover's present population.
That we have had a notable increase in unemployment (over 20% in one year), and more and more people being settled here would just take more of our local jobs away.
I gave a full view of the reality all way round, and bade them to take into consideration these views.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Alexander's posting (#483) and Chris Precious's (#506) raise points that I feel need commenting on.
First Chris Precious appears to ridicule the Farthingloe / Arthurian connection. I am sure that this Chris did not mean it that way for he will be well aware of the Arthurian legend of the Lady of ffarthingloe and her husband Sir Gawain?
They lived in what we now call the Farthingloe Valley - then called Venson Dane and Wellclose - It was not until 1762, with the building of the road to Folkestone, did the valley become a thoroughfare. Following the Battle of Barham Downs, she and King Arthur searched the battlefield and found Sir Gawain's head. This she took to St Martin-le-Grand (that once stood to the west of Market Square - you can see the ruins from the right of the steps to the library).
Following the demise of St Martin-le-Grand in 1136, his skull was removed to St Mary de Castro Church at the Castle. Indeed, in Caxton's preface to Malory's tales, he says, '... in the Castle of Dover ye may see Gawain's skull.' The legend was first written down in the 13th century. I made a précis in my book Haunted Dover.
Alexander in his posting #483 states, correctly, that CGI funding for the Western Heights / Farthingloe developments is coming from loans provided by an Israeli Bank. I say this as I have received a number of e-mails from people questioning Alexander's posting. It is confirmed on the China Gateway International Plc site on the web - I have down loaded it and can pass it on to anyone who is interested.
I can also pass on the CGI company reports, one of which lists the shareholders. Most of these, at the time the document was published, were London Estate Agents. However, one particular shareholder did stand out, that was, and may be still is, David Pearl who had a 2.78% shareholding. Of note, David Pearl is a multi-millionaire property developer with most business interests in London - he is well covered on the internet.
On finding this out, I wrote to David Pearl suggesting that if he was in a philanthropic mood, instead of desecrating Western Heights with a houses and a hotel, he could set up a Trust fund. This could be matched by Lottery Funding to upgrade the NATIONAL MONUMENT that is Western Heights. I still await his answer but perhaps the CGI Director, whom I know reads these postings, will remind him?
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
I have had an e-mail from Rob Prince of CGI who has pointed out:
"There are 3 main shareholders (Ken Wills - CEO, Chris Seymore Prosser-MD and Laxey Partners- a "hedge fund". Not an estate agent!). The others are small shareholders, none of which I believe to be estate agents"
Also he points out that the David Pearl you may have written to isn't the 'multi-millionaire property developer' but someone else from Ireland who was a previous investor !!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
If you look at the development website for Whitfield, you'll see how it's been pasted into a happy public consultation spin, with happy people explaining to happy local residents how happy they will be, and no mention of the public disapproval towards the whole project.
Something one would expect from a 1950s public campaign from a People's Republic.
Would be interesting to know why the developers always seem to get away with their development plans, that more often than not are unpopular and unwanted by the masses of local people.
They buy up farming land and green areas, now they're going for Heritage areas too, and always seem to come out on top and spin it off to the public as being widely wanted and agreed to by the public, to whom they are "doing great services".
I'm figuring out how to engage national support to block this development scheme on Farthingloe and Western Heights.
Perhaps people should complain to the Communities Secretary.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
As can be seen here, the overwhelming view is that people are happy to consider the development and it's potential benefits to the heritage and Dover as a whole. Can't see many people lining up to back your views ??
Found your letter to Israel Bank yet ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,883
That is definitely my opinion.
I am happy to consider but I have an open mind unlike Lara, Lorraine and Alexander who seem to want no change at all.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Paul
You make it clear in your posting above that you are in close contact with the three Directors of CGI and therefore you will know from their Company reports that:
viii The Company has borrowed heavily to finance the acquisition and development of the Sites. As is normal, Israel Discount Bank, which has provided the finance to the Company, has reserved the right to demand repayment of all advances made by it to the Company at any time.
Second, besides the £20K that DDC have earmarked to be spent on legal costs to transfer land at Western heights to CGI (gratis?).
You will also know that they have spent time - at Council Taxpayers expense to advise CGI on what to include in the final application, for instance, with regards to the introduction, the DDC planning officer advised, and I quote from DDC's reply to the CGI Scoping document:
'Introduction (1.1 - 1.16)
Reference should be at para 1.2 to the Western Heights being within a scheduled Ancient Monument and Conservation area and at 1.3 to Farthingloe being within an area of Outstanding Natural Beauty.
Paragraphs 1.9 & 1.10 refer to the development falling under Section 2 Part 10b of Schedule 2 of the Town and Country Planning Regulations. As the development falls outside the urban area of Dover and much of it is within the Area of Outstanding Natural Beauty (AONB), it is questioned whether this would be the appropriate reference as the proposal is not an 'urban development project' per se.
Just think ... how far would that £20K of Council Taxpayers money gone towards improving Western Heights?
Plus the amount of Council Taxpayers Money wasted using DDC's planning officer's expertise - when they should have been looking after the interests of the District - to ensure that CGI put forward an 'acceptable case' that can be justifiably given consent. Cost - in the region of £10K
Together - we are looking at £30K, this could have been matched for the Lottery Fund ... making £60K.
Then we have the philanthropists - such as the David Pearl from London. Perhaps if time had been spent chasing them up as has been spent sticking up for CGI - then the outcome would be positive - Dover's NATIONAL MONUMENT and ARTHURIAN valley would be saved.
As it is ... with a great deal of help from those who should know better, more nails will be knocked into Dover's coffin
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
"...has reserved the right to demand repayment of all advances made by it to the Company at any time." - a pretty standard proviso on most loans !!
I am in contact with most parties and I would be silly not to, I am simply passing on an e-mail from CGI who are reading this thread with interest and asked me to post a response.
As I have said before I am on no-ones 'side', as I can quite easily see myself fighting for or against any of the stakeholders, be it EH, CGI, DDC, etc, etc and I won't 'be sticking up' to anyone until I know all of the details...
Sadly £60k would barely make an impact in slowing down 50+ years of neglect let alone improve it. We are talking millions to undo the damage and ensure that the heritage is there in another 200 years.
Not sure why would I 'chase up' an un-connected person you contacted in error??
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Paul
£60K would have gone a long way towards your visitor centre and you know what they say ... a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.'
It would have been a start and then such people as David Pearl and other, more local, entrepreneurs may show an interest in trying to negate the years of neglect.
As it is, DDC want, as their predecessors, Dover Corporation, wanted to be shot of Western Heights ... hence the time spent on helping CGI to put their planning case together to desecrate both Western Heights and Farthingloe.
You keep saying, wait and see ... there is no need. All you need to do is read the Scoping Document and DDC's advice on ensuring that planning permission will be given. Both are in the public domain and I quoted from them in #517 above, so please don't try to trivialise hard facts - it is unbecoming.
Our only hope is to make other locals aware of what is about to happen to Western Heights and Farthingloe. We have recently seen local views ridden rough shod over at Sholden and the Townwall Street Motel with the accompanying LED billboard signage.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
"entrepreneurs may show an interest in trying to negate the years of neglect."
There's a big word in there MAY - what if they don't, it may be another 50 years until there is another opportunity like there may be at present comes along, what condition would the Heritage be in in 50 years time?
£60k might do some repairs, but it will take a lot more to even make the place secure. Do you know how much vandalism there is on the Heights, how much WHPS and EH spend on repairing damage and stolen equipment?
The only way that they can be truely secure for the future is with a permanent presence up there with something like a memorial, or a tourist attraction that gets numbers similar to Dover Castle that can be self-funding, secure and free from anti-social behavious and vandalism. This doesn't come cheap !!
If Alexander has his way, he wants the place to get overgrown, discourage too many people from going up there but 'ask' some 'body' for millions of pounds to repair some walls
If it is all so simple where are your letters over the last 20 years to philanthropists asking for the easy to get money
Been nice knowing you :)