Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Welcome Stuart - thanks for your views
Summarises what I and many others have been saying very well.
Been nice knowing you :)
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Hi Paul. I'm just focusing on the heart of the matter. In my opinion, allowing, as some have suggested, the managed decline of the heritage on WH would be a decision future generations will condemn us for. I am as guilty as most in this town of ignoring the situation on WH, and focusing too much on the castle. It's only been in the last year or so that I've started to understand what we are in danger of losing. I was up on the Heights on Saturday and was fortunate to bump into one of the WHPS guys who, in the space of ten minutes or so, really managed to open my eyes to the scale of the task you guys are trying to do. All I can say is thank you and keep up the good work. I look forward to the next open day when I can get the chance to have a proper look around.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
That was probably Phil?
Yes the scale of the Heights is difficult to comprehend, as I have never tried before I thought I would do a plot on a map....
The area of the Heights via the perimeter of the monument is about 220 acres, compared with the Castle which is only about 45 acres !!
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
welcome stuart, you are the second new member that has joined in order to discuss the proposed development.
not a hot topic in town but certainly is on here.
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Hi Howard. I really believe that a large proportion of Dover's population don't have any real idea of what is currently on the WH, let alone any proposed developments. All the attention goes on the castle, and even there it is focused on very particular episodes in Dover's history. Of course if you use the argument put forward by some that any development of WH would take trade away from the town, perhaps we should be campaigning to close the castle in order to bring more people to Dover.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
You mentioning the town Howard made me wonder how many even know this MIGHT happen or even care about the result unless they happen to live in the area.
Welcome to the forum Stuart, a very good summary.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Jan - as was mentione somewhere in the depths of this thread, CGI has a 'consultation' website and various displays and the roadshow, as well as the articles in the papers
Sadly it only drew about 100 responses of which 63% was favourable. But as the residents have been kept aware of plans, if they were all so against them, surely they could have majorly skewed the results if everyone up there had put in negative reponses ??
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Paul - Yet more personal attacks - your facetious remarks (#538) this time over my book, Haunted Dover. This has been stocked by the WCCP, Dover Museum and is available at WH Smiths - it is also a best seller.
One of the main features is that I give account of local legends in their historic context - I am, after all a local historian with regular contributions published in the Dover Mercury for the last nine years as well as academically respected articles and book - Banking on Dover - to my credit.
However, it is evident you have not read Haunted Dover by your comment on the Braddon story ... may I suggest that you do?
Second I note that in posting #523, regarding CGI that you, "helped do the cashflow statement for one if their startup companies" as a trainee at an accountant.
That being the case, then you can answer my question, taken from CGI Company report:
When the Sites were transferred to the Company the Company made use of an Inland Revenue APPROVED (my capitals) Stamp Duty scheme. There is a possibility that this could be retrospectively be withdrawn in which case the Company would incur an obligation to pay stamp duty of £680,000. What is meant by APPROVED?
Finally, Howard, I agree with Stuart (#545), the larger population of Dover do not know what is going on with regards to Western Heights and Farthingloe - and the danger they are in. That is hardly surprising as the subject is only being discussed, in any depth, on the Forum
Albeit, even here one has to put up with continual personal attacks that have now put me off making any more contributions.
Lorraine
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
If a light-hearted comment about 'Ghosts' is considered a personal attack then I will await my ban from the Forum by PaulB !!!
Sorry company tax isn't my bag - you'll have to speak to a financial advisor...
Been nice knowing you :)
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Hi Lorraine. I think you are right say that the larger population don't know of the dangers that threaten the WH, although I expect there will be differing opinions over whether the real threat comes from development, or from doing nothing. I suppose it comes down to the individual's priorities.
I am disappointed that you feel some of the posts in this thread can be interpreted as personal attacks. I for one would not have registered here if I felt for one minute that that sort of stuff was happening. There seems to be some questioning of your "Arthurian" comments, and that is to be expected. As a historian, you will know that there is absolutely no historical evidence to support the Arthurian legends, or even a specific King Arthur himself. It is, as you say legend, nothing more, nothing less. Most of these stories come from books that are no more reliable as a source of history than "The Di Vinci Code". The issues on the WH are to important to be bogged down by fairytales. I am no historian, just a resident of Dover, and if, as you say this is the only place this issue is being openly discussed, I am keen to read your continuing input. (By the way, I do own "Haunted Dover", and find it an interesting read.)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a couple of years ago i mentioned the grand shaft being open for the weekend and the reply came back "where is it"?
this from a resident of 50 years plus, not alone either.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Not surprising but there are thousands of people from all over the country and even worldwide who know what and where it is !!!
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I read Haunted Dover in 2010, and really liked it.
It's one of those books I'm looking forward to reading through again.
The Arthurian legend, as handed down to us form many authors, some of whom unknown, is extremely interesting, as it has been presented in various forms, and gave inspiration to many great books in the 12-14th centuries, when Troubadores would travel from castle to castle in southern France, guests of the local baron, and recite their narrative, to the accompaniment of minstrels and actors.
The legend goes back to ancient Britain, and has been adapted in various cultures, including Spain, Italy and Germany, as well as France.
No-one knows the exact historic outline, but it may be suggested, that, as it has to do, at least in one popular version, with Celtic Britons verses Anglo-Saxons, that Dover may well have been a centre of the historical facts behind legend.
Horsa and his brother Henghis landed in Kent, and in Kent the first battles took place between Celts and Angles, whose leaders, Horsa and Henghis, were Jutes, kinsmen of the Angles.
Dover's particular version of the Arthurian legend, as presented by Lorraine, fits in perfectly with the beauty of Farthingloe, but what interest is that to developers?
They would just concrete it all up and cover the place with cement, burying Arthur and all under a developers urban concrete scheme, called Burlington estate.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Tom, to let you know, the Whitfield urbanisation public consultation scheme was the biggest joke in Dover's history.
The local MP, Charlie Elphicke, prior to being elected and while still not an MP, had campaigned vigorously to block the plans. Once elected, he sent a missive to many a letter-box in Dover promising that the bull-dozers would still be stopped.
This while the pre-consultation was still in process, and before the official public consultation had begun.
Ha ha, he then fell silent. After that, DDC finalised the scheme.
A UKIP representative made big statements prior to the consultation, and indeed, I got expelled from the local UKIP committee for opening my mouth and supporting both the MP and UKIP on their stance.
I was told to shut-up! They did nothing else until DDC finalised the scheme.
Even my letter to the UKIP MEP for the South East, which was in that period while the public consultation was still on-going, received no reply.
Even though UKIP officially are against these urban schemes.
Meanwhile PaulW of DDC planning, before and during the public consultation process, wrote something about "knee-jerk comments" from me on the issue of opposing the Whitfield urbanisation scheme.
So Ton, IF we did not open our mouth now to oppose this plan to concrete up Western Heights and Farthingloe, it would go the same way, and they would sign it over to developers.
Then we would be informed that it is too late, as we would owe the developers tens of millions - nay hundreds of millions, of pounds, to revoke the contract.
This has nothing to do with Democracy.
Keith: you mentioned something about politics in reference to Whitfield.
Never trust a political party!
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Who's Henghis? Was he the little know third brother of Hengist and Horsa
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
alex
two points.
a)there is not a paulw in ddc planning.
b) the whitfield development was always a done deal, i have no idea why charlie aligned himself with the protestors.
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
Ladies......Gents, may I suggest a little breather? I am aware that most of you know each other well, but from a new person point of view some posts are a little scary! In our own little universe's we all want the same thing - what is right for the Western Heights - albeit that outcomes may differ.
To bring us back to the beginning I joined DF and submitted my letter to explain why I believed that the development should not go ahead and it has been a great learning curve reading others opinions, all of which I have read and digested.
New plans are imminent as we are all aware, which I will hopefully see very shortly.
Paul, I hope very much that the next Western Heights Open Day is very well marketed on the back of what is now going on, it would be an ideal opportunity to show the rest of Dover and outlying areas what they are missing, and prove that the 63% came from people who do not understand the proposals in full, should you need any help in any format please do let me know, my family and I intend on being there ourselves.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Having come back from work, I went on to the China Gateway International (CGI) website, and came across some odd news:
"Should money be made by Dover Gateway Ltd, CGI then get 40% still as well as the £5 million due to be paid for CGI's land at Western Heights and Farthingloe in Dover."
"land at Dover is being flogged off for £5 million and that will then leave CGI with only its portion of Manston Business Park (KCC and TDC, through EKO LLP own the key bits) and lots of agricultural land nearby with no planning consent."
"CGI has a little problem perhaps; well to be more precise a £31.4 million one! In the heady days of 2007 it had a loan from The Israel Discount Bank(IDB) of £24.5 million that as a facility, grew to £28.5 million which was due to be repaid in Nov 2009. "
"It is interesting that CGI state that the £5 million for land in Dover is earmarked for repayment to IDB. With successful completion in 90 days, CGI would then have some money to repay IDB back some of its £31.4 million."
These are some extracts.
Shocked!!!
I am shocked!!!
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I think there are financial problems of a developer here.
They seem to have had problems with failed development plans Manston airport, but better would be to read the texts directly from the CGi websites, to have a full picture.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
One has to be really careful here what one writes, but my guess is, land on Western Heights and at Farthingloe with building permission is worth a lot more than without building permission. It could be worth, well, over £30 million at a guess!
