Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#21
Tom, by your posts on this thread you have convinced me finally that you are a believer in the big-government-top-down-heavy-hand model of government as is traditional in continental Europe.
I happen to believe in the opposite; your position is obviously consistent with full political and economic union involving the ultimate total abdication of national identity and competencies, while my instinct is to fight for the retention of the latter within a non-exclusive customs union and an association of fully independent nation-states.
The europarl to which we return our MEPs is not a law-making institution but a house of rubber stamps. European laws are initiated by the European Commission, an unelected body of civil servants and national placemen, for 'approval' by the parliament and council of ministers. It can reject proposed legislation but it routinely rejects the annual budget because of audit and fraud issues, changing nothing.
George Orwell and Lewis Carroll between them could not have made it up.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#22
tom
you correctly state that we voted to join the eec.
we were never offered a vote for the ec or eu.
if we were offered a vote to take things back to the eec i would happily vote for it.
if the same question was asked across europe many would say the same.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#23
Leaving to one side the personality sketches and assumed preferences.
Seeking out what anybody wants is a pretty futile exercise, a wish list is limitless.
How is anybody going to move forward in their search for what they consider the optimum arrangement?
Is it more or less likely to be found outside rather than inside?
I have nothing against searching for, or reaching out for, an association of independent states.
In addition to the above question, what has this fully independent-ness ever looked like?
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#24
Howard, you are certainly on to something there. Bravo!
I would hazard, that this would first require the education of the people's of the EU, but now as way back when, this has never been contemplated. Always it is thought better to keep us all at sixes-and-sevens.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#25
Tom, all your arguments for EU membership would be OK if they were in the context of a campaign preceding an in/out referendum.
But because you believe it worthy to deny us this democratic right, and actually try to make us believe that 40 years ago the British majority "voted for the European Union", your rhetoric resembles top-to-bottom "I know better than you what is good for you all".
We want a referendum in/out and we want it now. THIS IS DEMOCRACY.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#26
a refereremdum is unlikely to happen,leaving the uk in limbo again..
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#27
Horlicks Alex.
By all means, let us have an in/out referendum.
Are you prepared for an 'in' vote?
P.S.
When it comes to it are you prepared for an 'out' vote? Or is it to be all palm-trees and balmy breezes?
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#28
Since when, Tom, is a referendum vote on common market membership a "vote to join the EU without end and forever...?
Do governments get elected "forever", or are they elected for a set period of four or five years?
The EU is a total failure, and public debt has already made it bankrupt, its OWN public debt.
EU countries are bailed out time and again owing to their public debt, and start strangling the people through austerity so that a gang of EU masterminds can stay in power and join the gravy trains.
The EU is DEAD, it is attached to clinical machines and only responds to bail-out impulses.
WE WANT SOVEREIGNTY AND DEMOCRACY
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
#29
That's an argument that makes sense to me Alexander.
All we need now is a referendum, and for someone to tell us the truth about staying or joining, untainted by party stances.
...anyone...?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#30
my guess is that if we ever have a referendum that there will be a small turnout and a close vote. it will have no interest to anyone under the age of 40 who have not known anything else.
at the end of the day it doesn't really matter as the institution will destroy itself, first with the collapse of the currency then a major player will withdraw from the union leading to a domino effect.
as alex said in 28 the idea is dead but the bureaucrats are so insulated from reality they carry on pumping out propaganda thinking that we take it all in.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#31
The best date is the next general election date.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#32
alex,your last line,bad news is we have still got them.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#33
Only just, Brian. If you europhiles get your way our government will end up as a subordinate soviet of the EU.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
#34
The European Union leaders want to abolish sovereignty and democracy.
The Coalition cancelled the local referendum paragraph from the Localism Bill in 2011 because true democracy would alienate the people from slavery to tyranny, further encouraging people to ask for a referendum on the EU too, and on other important national issues.
Instead they gave us EU austerity, and some countries are particularly hard hit by it.
But austerity is a lost battle, as the bailouts keep coming and the public debt keeps rising.
Yet we still pay £50 million a day to the EU.
Some people think it's a great thing, but we all pay.
In return we have mass unemployment, 1 million among the youth alone.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
#35
Subordinate Soviet........somewhat provocative....even for you Peter.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#36
EU austerity?
Truly a looking-glass world view.
If we had the 'out' vote before Christmas, what would the respective manifestos look like?
[This
is great fun.
]
{Edit:not 'no' vote, but 'out' vote, silly me}
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#37
you are being rather harsh reg, try to picture the scene.
commissar brian knocks on peter's door at 2 am gives him a bear hug then says "comrade garstin your gulag is ready and try not to write one of those long winded novels while you are there, they always sit on the shelves at w.h. smiths unread".
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#38
a bit like a tale of two cites and war and peace mixed together.what heavy reading that would be.
peter/alx and howard,how come those countrys who are using the euro and the constitution [the latest edition] still have there soverinty and have democratic goverments running there countrys indiependantly.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
#39
Gulag Howard surely you mean Closet ?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#40
no reg when howard says gulag he means gulag.
