Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Why it's right to stay in the EU
Business has not always got it right on Europe. Many high profile names campaigned to take us
into the single currency which would have been a disaster.
'When it comes to the bigger picture of our economy, our jobs and our living standards we need the
EU as much, if not more, than the EU needs us.'
But when it comes to our wider relationship with the European Union, business leaders are correct in
warning that we need to be in, rather than out, of the EU.
A letter published in the Financial Times this morning signed by business names ranging from
Sir Richard Branson to Sir Michael Rake, chairman of BT, has performed a valuable service by
asserting that the UK needs to be at the heart of Europe, not on its periphery or even outside it.
Many of us are frustrated by Europe's restrictive rules and regulations, on employment law fo
instance, or its record of interfering and irrational human rights judgements. And the EU enjoys a
big trade surplus with the UK, selling us more of their goods than they buy of ours.
But when it comes to the bigger picture of our economy, our jobs and our living standards we need
the EU as much, if not more, than the EU needs us.
The EU is the world's biggest exporter of goods and services, accounting for more than 16pc of
global activity.
Full story Telegraph.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
It is not, "Why it's right to stay in the EU?", but "Why it is right to be in the EU!"
It is a mistake to continue talk of such matters as a semi-bystander. The EU is not a mere convenience, but a necessity. It is a nonsense also to heave an imagined sigh of relief that we were never a part of the 'single currency'.
The collapse of the Euro is as much due to we distancing ourselves from it, carping and gloating...and profiting.
What is missing from all retrospective denunciations of all things EU, is any real willingness to play a true role within the EU.
Had the UK chosen, at any time in the past thirty years or so, to be wedded to the EU, and not remained little more than its coquettish mistress, things would indeed have turned out entirely differently.
The UK has no place to be relieved, thankful or grateful, that we have for so long stood apart from mainland Europe. Had we the courage to recognise that the channel is naturally narrower than the 'pond', and had accepted that our National fortune is better allied with Europe than the USA, this whole financial crisis could have been avoided.
But no, successive UK Governments, for reasons best known to themselves - and each other, have continued to find common cause with the very worst that America has to offer.
We have long been, and (seemingly) wish to get back to being, the supreme Double-Agent, the Mata Hari, (nay, the Gangsters Moll) of Global Intrigue, the flexible-friend, the sinuous-serpent:The Worm of the Western World.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
cannot find the article on the telegraph website so i will have to judge on the bits reg has posted.
just looks the usual puerile stuff from the pro e.u lobby who talk about living standards, jobs and the bigger picture but never tell us what we gain by being in or lose by leaving.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
I think tom and reg's posts have explained that
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
enlighten me keith, what are the pluses and minuses?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
im not pro or anti EU
will leave it to Brian
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
so what was the point of post 4?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
as i said i think tom/reg answered your question
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#3
"tell us what we gain by being in or lose by leaving."
Oh well, I have had a few tries at responding to you Howard, but the 'actualité' gets in the way.
We would lose a good opportunity to play a major part in world affairs, we would become the ventriloquists dummy in a suitcase lying at the road side.
We would lose a real opportunity to grow the stature of our regions, and fall back to being no more than 'London etc.'
One difficulty in forming a response to you is because I doubt whether
we are actually 'in' the European Union.
Ours seems to be less even than a marriage of convenience, and more of an occasional harem-favourite.
[A brain wave!]
Instead of the idea of 'we' or 'us', let us consider the 'I'.
I have gained much by being (nominally) a member of the EU. At the very top of my list is that I am a Citizen of the EU, not some mere oik, but an Elector, one whose voice
should be heard. Not simply one to be satisfied that 'my' Magna Carta freedoms allow me to shout and to bawl, but leave me (oh so free) to be roundly ignored. Which is all a 'subject' would have the right to wish for.
And when the term 'citizen of the world' is pretty much meaningless, Citizen of Europe, within Europe, bloody well does mean something.
Much of the other gains I feel I get from the EU are more about the 'not-I', (all those others of my fellow Citizens of the EU and the wider world). And with the ECHR, being not quite an EU institution, it is yet a vital part of membership.
I shudder at the thought that our membership of the EU is held so cheaply that we would give it up simply to be able to send people off to be tortured:"Send us your persecuted Aristocrats, send us the exploiters of the world's poor - that have yet to learn of the myriad conveniences of living in a constitution-less pseudo-Monarchy, send us the Politically useful...but leave us the right to get shot of those last few when their usefulness is over."
When it comes down to it Howard, you need to come up with better questions.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
#6 ?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
a lot of words and generalisations tom but no specifics.
how would continuing membership mean more jobs, better pay, improved housing, transport links, health service, education etc.?
maybe keith will answer all these questions?
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Those are the very points made in Reg's #1 Howard.
The EU already means 'jobs', why else would the strength or weakness of the Euro matter as it does?
The EU invests extensively in transport infrastructure across Europe and beyond, it does this in part to improve the reach of EU manufacturers.
The EU offers much in the way of research in and the regulation of Health matters.
If ever the UK was to engage with Language teaching, our being a part of the polyglot EU would be more of a beneficial two-way street.
In many sectors wages have to be competitive across Europe, we tend to hear only about the influx of cheap labour, but that is not the whole story.
Two other points remain, to do with our half-way house involvement with the greater EU.
If we were more of a team player, we might adopt some of the much better methodologies employed in the work place across Europe;trades unions on company boards, less of a wage differential in the work place, less reliance on unwarranted bonuses etc. etc. Many of the regulations that come from the EU are of benefit, often of more benefit to those lower down the wage scale, but railed against loudly and regularly in certain sections of the popular press. (all part of the 'game' of are-we-in-or-are-we-out)
A great many of the good ideas that come from the EU would have never been given house room, but for our membership, and many of those and a whole lot else would never be forthcoming from our own Partys of Government.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
The minority who don't like Democracy want to force us all to stay in the EU, because they refuse a referendum on in/out.
Ask them WHY they want to lord it over the majority, they will give no answer.
Ask them why Greece has 65% youth unemployment, Spain 57%, Italy 40% and a few other similar figures, and why 90% of Romani are unemployed in Slovakia, they will IGNORE the question, and certainly will make NO connection of this with "being in the EU".
They'll avoid like the pest any reference to the EU on this issue, or on an issue concerning the enormous public debt of most EU member states.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
#13
"The minority who don't like Democracy want to force us all to stay in the EU, because they refuse a referendum on in/out."
There was an audience member on the BBC's QT who said pretty much the same thing. He 'demanded' a referendum, to decide things "once and for all".
It is certainly people like him, and your good self Alex, that have not got the least concept of Democracy.
Why did this man think that it was for him and his generation to settle this matter permanently, when a previous generation of people, presumable people just like him, had had their say. Why is it that that first referendum did not settle matters "once and for all"? And what of the generations to come?
"Ask them WHY they want to lord it over the majority, they will give no answer."
Well, this is obvious clap-trap. As is the remainder of the post.
The EU Parliament and its bureaucracy is (unfortunately) little different from our own in the UK. Artificially set apart from the Electors and swamped with 'attractions' in the form of professional Lobbyists. The Publicisation of private debt is not confined to the EU, this is a disease they caught from the UK and the US.
When, oh when, are we to hear how so fantastically different, and so magnificently better, the UK, 'Independent' of the EU, will be, and in what ways shall it be so?
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
It is a wise kiddy-party hostess that ensures that there is enough of everything to go around;tantrums being so unseemly.
David Cameron under new pressure to hold EU referendum before election
Former Labour minister Tom Watson adds to Tory calls for vote before 2015
"David Cameron is under fresh pressure from both sides of the house to call an EU referendum before the election, as the prominent Labour MP Tom Watson joined a Tory campaign for an early vote.
Watson, a former Labour minister and campaign director, said he was planning to support Adam Afriyie, a Tory backbencher, who is leading calls for an in-out poll before 2015.
The move has been firmly rebuffed by No 10, which said the prime minister would in no circumstances allow a referendum before he had had a chance to renegotiate Britain's relationship with EU. Cameron is supporting a bill by James Wharton, a backbencher, which sets out a plan to hold a referendum before the end of 2017.
However, Afriyie is not satisfied with this timetable, arguing that voters are suspicious that they are not being allowed to have a say on Britain's EU membership straight away. He is planning to table an amendment to Wharton's bill calling for a referendum on 23 October 2014.
The Windsor MP has been the subject of speculation that he would like to be leader of the Conservative party. Speaking on Sky News's Murnaghan programme, he said it was "media tittle-tattle" that he wanted to succeed Cameron and insisted he was loyal to the leadership, but said he could not "sit quietly" while the referendum was put off until 2017.
Watson added fuel to the row by saying "a lot of people" in both Labour and the Conservatives wanted a referendum sooner..."
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/oct/06/david-cameron-eu-referendum-electionIgnorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Time for Cameron to come out of the `Closet`
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
We would still be trading with the EU - we are net importers so none of the EU countries want to lose that business. We can also trade freely with the Commonwealth which we dropped soom after joining, so we can give them m/billions to buy from us.
Because we would have a wider market, our employment would go up.
The £45 million net, we pay the EU could be spent on improving our NHS, schools, prisons, welfare etc. etc
We would be able to control/police our own borders and we could decide who comes in and who doesn't.
I can't see any REAL benefit of staying/being in the EU.
Tom mentioned that we had already voted on this years ago, but the British public were hood-winked into thinking we were voting for a "Common Market" - trade partners, but we weren't.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
my thoughts totally roger, especially the last sentence.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
So, in or out, we would be a net importer from the EU. Is there to be an increased opportunity to grow exports to the EU after we leave?
So, although it was us that curtailed our trade with the rest of the Commonwealth, somehow being out of the EU will reverse this?
The money we currently spend or do not spend here and there is money we do not have. What miracle is envisaged that would alter our spending on schools etc.?
Control our own borders? Surely the only change here is to EU immigration, as far as the rest goes we pick and choose already.
Roger, have you annunciated in REAL benefits to coming out of the EU?
So, the good old dumb-ass British public, way back when, were misled, but now (again, miracle of miracles) we are all well informed, and so much better people altogether than were people back then. For these days nobody in Politics ever dissembles or lies.
We get the same level of truth today than we have ever received. Politicians in the established partys saw an advantage for them in going into the EEC.
And we run around in circles today for exactly the same reasons.
Heaven forfend that we ever elect MEPs that go to Brussels to act in a positive way in the interests of the UK.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
