Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
31 December 2009
13:0535988#1
As Christmas is a time that celebrates the birth of Christ I thought we might ponder a moment on his death....under the guise of recent evidence that has emerged about the Turin Shroud.
For those who dont know, the Turin Shroud is the cloth many believe was the cloth Christ's body was wrapped in when it was taken down from the Cross.
At this point I will upload a picture...
A decade or so ago a section of the cloth was analyzed after a great fuss was made by scientists that it might be a fake. This info is from a documentary last night on C4. A tiny piece of cloth was extracted from the bottom extreme corner of the shroud. When the cloth was carbon dated it was found to be from the 14th century, thereby indicating that the whole thing was a fake, a very good fake, but a fake.
The tests were carried out here in Oxford, in Zurich, and in California..and all concurred. However recently a couple carrying out research also, as I remember, in California, found some anomalys in the carbon dating process which led the Californian scientist Prof Raymond Rogers to look again. He concluded, just before his death, that the cloth sample was part of a repair that was carried out in the 14th century and not totally the original cloth but a joint repair weave. This has therefore led some communities to believe that the carbon dating was null and void, that it basically gave a wrong dating, the date of the added weaved-in fibres.
So we are back again in a situation where the Turin Shroud can possibly be the genuine article. The Shroud has at times suffered considerable damage and how it survived at all is something of a miracle, but as a consequence of this damage has been repaired many times.
Tests have found that the splashes on the crown definitely contain blood serum from a real human, there is no trace of paint or any other substance that would have produced a design, or an image. The imprint is indeed from a human body, and perhaps very likely to be that of Christ.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
31 December 2009
16:1235998#2
We` ll never know Paul. Whatever evidence turns up now, the religious will say it`s Christ`s, and others will say it`s not. Jesus, (or anybody else), rising from the dead, is too far fetched for me to believe in these modern times. He`d have to be an alien, in which case, the human blood wouldn`t be his.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
31 December 2009
17:1036005#3
A few years ago people would have said replacing a mans heart with another mans heart was too far fetched......ditto the world being round, shining beams into someones eyes to restore sight and false arms and legs that actually move and feel.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
31 December 2009
17:1336006#4
I trust you Bern.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
31 December 2009
17:5436011#5
How can the imprint be from a human body, it's topologically wrong. If you wrapped a piece of cloth around your face, marked the main features such as the eyes, nostrils, mouth etc. Then unwrapped it and lay it out flat, the relative positions of those features would change...and certainly not look like this.
I liked the idea that it was actually a photograph produced in the 14th century (possibly by Leonardo da Vinci, a associate of the family first documented to own it) by camera obscura. Apparently traces of degraded silver nitrate have been identified in the material.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
31 December 2009
18:0136013#6
You`re suffering bi-polaroid symptoms DT1
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
31 December 2009
18:1436014#7
It all comes down to a matter of faith - whether or not it is the burial shroud of Jesus Christ is, to me, largely irrelevant. I've never been one to accept religious icons as having anything to do with the teachings of Christ, and so it is with the Turin Shroud.....at the risk of offending those who do believe in such things, the symbolism associated with icons such as this seem mere trinkets in the greater matter of faith. To me, that is.
True friends stab you in the front.
31 December 2009
20:1536022#8
I agree - symbols of faith are as significant but not as important as faith itself as they offer comfort and direction. Faith and deity are such huge matters that we need symbols we can understand so that we can properly use our faith and don't go bonkers trying to assimilate it!! (Although I really like the idea of bi-polaroidism!!!)
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
1 January 2010
21:4236078#9
I tend to agree with DT1's theory as this was also pointed out in a documentary on the shroud some time ago. I wasn't aware, though, that the carbon dating results had been negated. Andy and Bern have the right idea concerning symbolism it seems to me.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
1 January 2010
21:5636080#10
whoever or whatever jesus was, his charisma still exists 2000 years on, even more than take that and westlife.
most literature around that time in the known world mentions his good works and affect on people around him.
from a personal point of view, i believe that the "miracles" were dreamed up by simple illiterate folk that would only have been convinced of his importance by a few magic tricks.
i bet that there are few forumites, religious or not, that would not give a few years of their life to go back in a time machine to discover the truth.
Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
1 January 2010
22:0836082#11
Howard: If a time machine were available where/when would you begin your travels? There are so many historic mysteries that could be explored.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
1 January 2010
22:1236084#12
I`d go back and tell Vic to tell him to watch what he puts on here.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,709
1 January 2010
22:1636086#13
The thing I find bizarre is that the "image" on the shroud is that of a western European man, not a Palestinian Jew - but then almost all Christian icons and depictions of Christ portray him as a Western European.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
1 January 2010
22:3436087#14
I`m impressed with your comments above Howard. Though strictly non-religious, I feel sure that Jesus existed, but of course in those far off times, people would have believed in any confidence tricksters around. I assume like over here, traveller`s bought news to everyone.There`s plenty of them around today, and very convincing some of them are too, but rather than traveller`s, we call them politician`s, so imagine centuries ago with no tv or papers to warn you. I`m certain telling porkies isn`t some modern invention. Jesus may have been a genuine peace lover, who believed in what he was doing, and imagined some entity above guiding him.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
1 January 2010
22:5736091#15
phil
since living here, i would go back to the time that the bronze age people and their planning for their own cross channel ferry, from the time they selected the trees to come down, through to the actual maiden voyage.
ross
they always say that the turin shroud depicts a picture of christ as depicted by artists.
colin
the thing about jesus is/was he never benefited money wise from people, maybe that is what makes him different?
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
1 January 2010
23:0936092#16
I think whether you`re religious or not, many people would like to go back to biblical times to sort the truth out once and for all.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
2 January 2010
01:1536095#17
That old bit of cloth no more shows the face of Jesus than my socks represent an advanced alien culture. But what it does show is just how blindly people are willing to believe whatever claptrap they're told in order to reinforce a religious doctrine. Let's assume a scientist shows the world a bit of metallic cloth with a strange impression on it and claims it is of alien origin. The amount of scrutiny, questioning, and suspicion it would have to go through to be "proven" would be immense - and quite rightly so. But yet again the religious are willing to swallow ANYTHING without the proof, and in fact any questioning or scrutiny is frowned upon. I saw that documentary too and remember the massive resistance that the scientific community faced when trying to obtain a sample for testing.
Sorry guys but to me that shroud is just a worthless bit of old rag which is no more than an artistic curiosity at best. And it is just one more religious artifact that is accepted by believers without any need for proof. And just to push the point a bit further, there is no actual real proof that Jesus was even real in a historical context let alone a religious one, apart from a series of texts made many years after his apparent sacrifice by people who never even knew him. (Anyone wishing to challenge that view must at least present something which proves me wrong rather than simply disagreeing with it) And the shroud certainly does not constitute proof of anything other than the sheer gullibility of the religious.
And as for time machines - if such a machine existed, just about every religious authority would ban / suppress trips to religious landmark moments because they would very likely be discredited. For example, it would be proven that Jesus (if he existed) never walked on water or whatever. You get the idea. Such events would be banned from exposure to truth-seekers with a time machine as it would undermine the mythology that all religion is founded upon.
But hey I can't help being an atheist, it's the way god made me.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
2 January 2010
08:4936099#18
Rick
aS Always your posting on this subject is a good one.
I have very different views, but if there is something that may help to make the world a better place then we should go for it.
Iv posted before on my background and dissapointment whilst going through the religious upbringing.
But even still, its nice to think theres summatr out there and i'm probably just hopeful its correct
2 January 2010
10:0536124#19
Thanks, Rick, for trampling all over other peoples beliefs and treasured icons. The level of thought and insight you offer is breathtaking. I don't have an opinion about this shroud - why would I? I am not an expert on cloth, just someone with a bit of faith - not blind faith, just standard common or garden faith which isn't especially dependent on religion or the Religious. Frankly I don't much care if the shroud is Jesus' or not - it won't affect my faith one way or another and doesn't impact on my spirtual relationships. But some people do take comfort and warmth from symbols, and why not? You may have some idiocyncratic faiths of your own: perhaps in Humankind or the footy results. Who cares - they will be your beliefs and I wouldn't dream of stamping on them. It also doesn't matter if Jesus walked on water or not - the miracles may even have been the way used by poor or illiterate people to explain or give substance to something they couldn't understand unless it came wrapped in some mystery. You need to understand the times in whcih the gospels were written, the history and the culture and even the languages, to really comprehend the back story, and it isn't all about mysticism and miracles - far from it. It is a political story with power and human interest. But I expect you would prefer to diss it from a distance and from behaind a nicely constructed wall of ignorance rather than read and digest some facts and information.
Ross - the face appears Western because it is an imprint and "negative".
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
2 January 2010
11:3836130#20
always easy to bash christianity, they do not hit back like muslims.
