Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
Just coming back on here, and yahoo reports that the Turin shroud is going on show for a year. The Vatican tells us that it is for spiritual tourism not religious tourism. Any one educate me on that? Also, for the first time apparently, the church has expressed doubt about it`s authenticity. P.S. Wow, 3 month`s to the day the last posting on here for this. Felt sure it was only weeks ago.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
I'm no athiest, but al ot of what Rick says strikes a chord with my beliefs. As for miracles, all tosh if you ask me. What they are is allegorical attempts to explain something to folks who didn't necessarily have the inteligence of the narrator/orator.
Did Jesus exist? Is there evidence? Well yes he did and, sure there is evidence Rick. There is documentary proof, found not too long ago, that Jesus from Nazareth, son of a carpenter, was schooled by religious thinkers in their purpose built community near the Sea of Galilee. These guys weren't Christians, obviously, but, documents written at the time mention him specifically, altohugh not dramatically.
If I get a bit of time I will find the Beeb documentary on this subject post a link.
As for attacking Islam, why bother. That religion is based on a fairly recent and peaceful prophet (like Jesus), not much different to Mormons, Buddhists etc. Nevertheless, Islam shares something nasty in common with Christianity. A strong desire to control peoples thoughts and actions. Something ideally suited to medieval times, not the 21st Century. Education will be the undoing of Islam and other religions, and that is why they try to control access to it, in the same way as Rome tried to, and eventually failed.
Finally, Bern, sorry sweetie, I cannot accept your argument for symbolism which, to me, could be interpreted as "false idols". The Catholic, Anglican and CofE churches are littered with them, not to provide comfort or direction methinks, but to perpetuate man-made religious rules/myths.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i thought it was an acknowledged fact that jesus of nasareth existed.
he appears in all literature from that time in places far afield that had heard of his charismatic following.
it is just a matter of faith or disbelief that he was the messiah.
much the same with the turin shroud, of course it is easy to debunk, but if believers go along with it, then it hurts nobody.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Hi
2 points I wish to make
When one kicks the bucket one will find out if there is an afterlife,God or whatever.I prefer to believe in God being brought uo a Catholic but everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I respect that view. Shit I'm pissed and forgot the second point....blast...but as Dave Allen used to end his show..."May your God go with you.." blimey look at the time....better put my head down
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Two million people are expected to visit the Turin Shroud when it goes on display. This Shroud is something I would like to see myself. The never ending line of people queing to see it is a tad off putting for me, but the sheer volume of visitors shows that people are moved by this item.
There can be no doubt about one thing though, when you visit religious items or icons like this, it can be an awesome experience. When you are young and in my case at the time, a highly involved practising Catholic, you experience heavenly experiences but of course this becomes rare as you get older. But to give you an example..I remember I had such a moment myself in the National Gallery and I may have mentioned it before. It may be theatrical...but when I walked into the darkened room to see Leonardo DaVinci's masterpiece of the Madonna and Child it was awesome and I have never forgotten the moment. I stood in a long line to get in and there it was on display behind the bullet proof glass, as some idiot had previously shot it. But it was an elevating experience and there can be no doubting the hushed reverence in the room from people from all walks of life. This was just the National Gallery after all.
But although the subject matter was religious in Leonardo's case, it nevertheless was not a religious experience. But if you transport such a moment, and multiply it when the item may be Christ's own burial shroud, you can imagine the awesome power of such a heartwrenching moment, especially among Christian believers. Words can hardly describe it.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
PaulB
I hate to sound like one of your groupies (having praised you yesterday)...but the posting above was very moving and very true.I admit that I am not truly bothered whether the Turin Shroud is Christs actual Burial Shroud or not...but I want to believe it was and still marvel at the Impression left on it.
Life is about living and enjoying ones'self and if works of art or books or even a great movie do that then so be it.Hey I even visited Loudres and drank the water..
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Sid - you are playing with serious fire of you call me sweetie..............just a gentle warning........!!
PaulB - I can relate to your post, very much. My youth is littered with experiences that are still with me, for the same reasons. Theatre or not, it works. There has been some discussion academically recently about the fact that it is possible to simulate "religious" experience by prodding a part of the brain with something or another, and for some this de-bunks the religious experience. BUT - we can also simulate smells and other experiences the same way - that doesn't mean the smells don't exist.
Rick - I just have to say this: I should have thought that ANY man's socks were indeed proof positive of alien life and culture!
I experienced those same feelings as Paul when he viewed the Leonardo masterpiece, Madonna and Child. Except for me it was Vincent's Sunflowers. Close up and live they are awesome and take your breath away. I guess therefore it must be so for all the great masterpieces and, as Paul says, nothing to do with religion.
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
So the Turin Shroud is to become the Touring Shroud. boom boom.
Sorry! had to get that one in.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
with you on that one sid, i find all of von goghs stuff inspiring, just as good for me were "the wheatfield and cypresses" and "the bedroom at arles".
also anything by rolf harris, of course.
Guest 693- Registered: 12 Nov 2009
- Posts: 1,266
There are those who believe that The Turin Shroud is a genuine artefact, but not that of Jesus Christ. Carbon dating gives the approximate date of the shroud as early 14th Century, and this has led to the widespread belief that the image is that of Jacques De Molay, the Grand Master of The Knights Templar who was executed in Paris in 1314. It is, as one might expect, a hotly disputed theorem, but it makes a refreshing change to hear that it might be a genuine relic but not relating to Christ. Here's the small Wikipedia entry about it:
"Freemasons often weave legends around the life and legacy of Jacques de Molay, claiming with little or no proof that Molay was a key figure connected to other stories of mystery. In the 2001 book The Second Messiah: Templars, the Turin Shroud, and the Great Secret of Freemasonry, is a claim that the Turin Shroud is actually an image of Jacques de Molay, not of Jesus Christ as is common belief.
There is no reliable basis for saying that the Shroud depicts Molay; however, it is true that there seems to be a connection between the provenance of the Shroud of Turin and the Templars. The French Knight Geoffroi de Charny's widow, Jeanne de Vergy, is the first reliably recorded owner of the Turin shroud. Some believe that her husband of similar name was nephew to Geoffroi de Charney Geoffroi de Charney, Preceptor of Normandy for the Knights Templar, and the associate of Jacques de Molay who was both sentenced to lifetime imprisonment with him, and then burned at the stake with him in 1314 after both proclaimed their innocence."
And, when one sees an image of Jacques De Molay, one can see how credence for this unlikely theorem has gained in popularity:
True friends stab you in the front.
Hang on Andy, JdM wouldn't be wrapped in a shroud if he was burned at the stake, he'd be in a bucket of ashes surely. The same must be true of GdC. Most Templars, except those arrested in Ewell (Temple Ewell) were arrested, tortured and then burnt at the stake as heretics. It is therefore highly unlikely the shroud is anything to do with the Templars. If it were, they would not remain silent on the matter, and the shroud would probably not be in public hands.
I therefore suspect the shroud belongs to the body of some medieval upper class twit, as they often had their bodies wrapped in linen cerecloth once the embalming process had finished.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
tring to cast my mind back on this without much success, there was a programme on channel 4 some time back about the knights templar.
some were executed, not all burnt at the stake though.
mind you, if they had chopped their heads off, there would still be no imprint on the shroud.
anyone else see the programme?
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Between 10 -12 May 1310 54 Templars were burnt at the stake on the orders of Philippe de Marignay, Archbishop of Sens. De Molay and his aide were slowly burnt on 18th March 1314, most of the other Templars sentenced to death in various countries were hanged. The mass burning of 54 Templars was a warning to the many still free who were gathering in Paris to protest the imprisonment of de Molay and the persecution of their order.
According to many sources there were at one time at least three cloths doing the rounds claiming to be Jesus's burial shroud.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Hi Chris!!!
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Hi Bern. I am still around and reading even if I don't post that often.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
I am reassured. Sometimes Life takes over, doesn't it!? I have been a little pre-occupied myself lately...............
True friends stab you in the front.