Guest 686- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 556
2 January 2010
11:4636131Bern wrote: "the face appears Western because it is an imprint and "negative".
Not sure I go along with that. Whether the image is positive or negative has no bearing on the apparent features in the face appearing to be from a western culture rather than middle-eastern. Nearly all iconography concerning Jesus depicts him as being a white European which, in my opinion, doesn't seem at all likely - so I go along with Ross on that. Jesus may even have been black, but certainly non-white.
We should also remember that the Bible isn't an historical document as such but a collection of narratives written over time and, in some cases, badly translated from poorly transcribed copies of copies of copies. The Old Testament particularly contains stories that were originally handed down by word of mouth before being written down so any historical "facts" would undoubtedly have become distorted.
Phil West
If at first you don't succeed, use a BIGGER hammer!!
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
12:0336133This shroud is to some religious people as that Martian meteorite found in Antarctica some years ago, (claiming evidence of life in it), is to astronomer`s. No hard evidence in either case, (perhaps never will be), but some religious people will think that shroud belonged to Jesus, as some astronomer`s will think that the Antarctica meteorite contains a martian microbe. Open minds or ignorance in both cases will go on for many years to come. I don`t believe in the martian microbe at the moment because I have a love of astronomy, the same as a religious person should not believe in the shroud, just because it`s old and looks like a religious icon on it.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
2 January 2010
12:1136135Clearly Jesus would have been of Palestinian, or Middle eastern, appearance!!!! He is a historically proven figure, born to Middle Eastern parents in the Middle East! Not "nearly all" Christian iconography presents him as white - only the iconography with which we, a western culture, are familiar!! And that is probably understandable. There is plenty of more appropriate or reality based imagery in the - wait for it.... - Middle East. I am constantly astounded by the way in which people who reject religion (for whatever reason) seem to think they have an great instinctive knowledge of religions and their artefacts!! There is so much to learn about all religions - Christianity being among them! - that is historic albeit open to contextual interpretation, and to learn about it some work should be done around language, context, the politics of the time - so much contributory information that informs and colours the perceptions. To simply say that "nearly all" iconography shows Jesus as white is inaccurate and based on......what? What we have seen here? Yes, in this culture white people often pictured Jesus as white - as many cultures have done, they depicted what was significant to them in a famliar and comfortable format. All cultures do that!
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
2 January 2010
12:2136138I thought Jesus was an English gentleman....blast I 'll have to rethink the whole concept...lol
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
2 January 2010
12:3036140Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
12:4036144I don`t reject anything if I have no knowledge of something Bern. I have a copy of `Mankind`s Search For God` in front of me, giving an outline of all the world`s most popular religion`s, and I confess to not being an authority on any of them. My rejection is purely that I want hard evidence, as I mentioned above on that meteorite. I alway`s have an open mind on anything, but I will not do what many have done down the centurie`s, namely, not questioned things that are written. Schools in the 19th and 20th centuries were notorious for that. And yes, as you said above Bern, there is lots to learn about different religions, and as I said in another post, I`d be more interested in it as I would History, geography etc, rather than it pushed down my throat at school.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
2 January 2010
12:4836149Colin
Yes share parts of that viewpoint suppose I feel there needs to be for me a belief of some kind and summat to look towards.
I tend to lead my life helpng others which is maybe part of this background.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
2 January 2010
12:4836151The very earliest Roman depictions of Jesus show him as clean shaven and young, the classic bearded image we are familiar with never really became established until the 5th or 6th century. However, there are simply no paintings or inscriptions that depict him from the early 1st century so really any visual depiction is spurious. However, the fact that he came from Palestine makes it pretty obvious that he would have had a middle-eastern appearance.
Still, the Shroud image is irrelevant to belief - whether or not it depicts the image of Christ is immaterial as faith doesn't need artifacts to rely on. By it's very nature faith is scientifically irrational.
Personally, I think that the Shroud is a medieval construction and is scientifically fascinating no matter who it depicts. Even if it could ultimately be proven to be first century it doesn't prove a thing about the reality or not of Christian belief. It's an awful tragedy that the Vatican butchered the thing a couple of years ago by cutting great swathes out of the burned areas thus destroying vast amounts of data and committing a great act of vandalism on an iconic artifact.
Let's not also forget that the Shroud, like Hitler, Jack the Ripper or the Knights Templar, is a licence to print money. Each theory and counter theory generates a new and very lucrative book. There is too much money to be made there, thats why all such best-selling pseudo-histories (I'm thinking of you, Graham Hancock) should be treated with extreme scepticism. Codes here, hidden mysteries there, it's easy to be sucked in to the hype. It's better to sit back and question how an author with a six figure book contract can overturn years of painstaking historical research with a new and glamourous theory as the book propels it's way to the top of the best seller list with a Channel 4 series to follow.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
12:5436153Part of this modern world I`m afraid Phil, which is why I`ve turned my back on TV and newspapers, and stick to the learned magazines.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 674- Registered: 25 Jun 2008
- Posts: 3,391
2 January 2010
13:0336155Not wanting to change the mode of the original text but colin(post 29)has a point, but either im old fashioned but can't say theres many of the so called modern things that inspire me.
2 January 2010
13:3036162Colin - post #23 was aimed at Phil rather than you, mate!
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
13:3336163Bless you my child.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
16:5436175How I said religion can be interesting above. Always liked old churches.
Woodnesborough, an hour ago. Pity about the wire though.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
2 January 2010
17:0336177Beautiful church, Colin. I used to live near the oldest Church in the UK, in Buckinghamshire. There were still crosses on the wall made by the Crusdaers with their swords as they passed through on their way to the Middle East. Whatever we now think about the Crusades, it was a historic time and well preserved. Tiny as well - very atmospheric.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
2 January 2010
17:1536178Despite my views on religion Bern, whenever we`ve gone away, by train or car, unintentionally, I`ve always managed to spot some old church in the distance, either standing on it`s own, or in a small hamlet with a few old dwelling`s surrounding it. Is it because it`s England, or maybe because I used to love the Christmas cards in my childhood with a church in the snow on the front?
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
2 January 2010
21:2136194some interesting posts there, phil made a very valid point about new discoveries made by someone with a book that just happens to be at the printers. he hitler diaries that even conned the sunday times, various sightings of the virgin mary at shrines, a new (must be true) jack the ripper and last but not least the pseudo scientists that have eveidence to support the fact that everyone is wrong and they are right.
2 January 2010
21:3436208Just underlines how it is people who abuse religion for their own ends. Nothing to do with faith, or Jesus, or Mohamed, or beliefs.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
3 January 2010
09:5336222It will be impossible now I suspect to tell if the Turin Shroud is genuine or not. It is the only one of its kind in existence, so it was clearly preserved by followers who knew the person dead, to be of some importance. Christ had followers determined to keep his name alive and would and could very well have held on to the very burial cloth.
Faith requires an element of belief, whether you are a catholic, a muslim or any kind of christian spin off...they all require a belief in the particular religion being followed and a belief in the existence of say Jesus Christ. When I as a kid was shown the relic of some saint or other and we had many in Ireland, ones knees almost went weak, knowing you were standing next to something heavenly as worn by a saint while on earth. To agnostics it might be a piece of cloth, to the beleiver it might be the hem of a cloak worn by St Francis or someone similar.
Its fashionable to talk down religion. But over the centuries the Christian religion has given us culture on an unparalled scale. It has been the massive motivational force in much we treasure today. Paintings sublime, Music sublime..Buildings sublime...all motivated completely by a belief in the greater God.
So religion has given us many positives, including a blue print for decent living which we have followed in the western world for centuries, it was the original 'social charter' for good and fairness. Its falling apart somewhat now..that charter and all those religions, but we are probably much the worse off on account of it. People used to fear punishment beyond civil law, but not any more, now they get a £100 fine and their conscience is clear enough for them to go out and do the crime again. There are no brakes now. God supplied the brakes before.
By the way yes the image is a negative.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
3 January 2010
10:3736226I believed in God and Jesus when I was young Paul, but then again, I also believed in father christmas. I believed because that`s what teacher`s at school told me, and I was offered no alternative, in which case I never questioned it. At secondary school, in the recent 60s, I had no teacher`s who could tell me about the planets etc, leaving me to muddle along and to eventually get a keen interest in astronomy. Late 60s and 70s, I had many books and magazines, plus different telescopes. In the 80s, I was getting bored, and lost some interest in it. Nothing else to learn about it really. Then, in the early 90s, my interests were reawakened, by a BBC2 horizon programme on the comet causing the extinction of the dinosaurs. Anyway, since then, I`ve been into the science of extra-terrestial life, (not flying saucers and green men), which took me into human biology and a host of essential interests to give me a better insight to it all.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Guest 690- Registered: 10 Oct 2009
- Posts: 4,150
3 January 2010
10:5036228Sorry, had to send the above in case I lost it all as happens. Anyway, to continue, I`ve always left religion to people to get on with and without getting into any argument`s over it. What has angered me over recent years, are these empty headed american religious fanatics, preaching the world is 10,000 years old, humans lived with dinosaurs and a host of other things, and raking in millions of $$$$$$$$`s in the process. And now, a new Irish law for blasphemy! If that happened here, this forum would lose all right`s to free speech. In fact, I`m surprised some individual idiot out there hasn`t had a go at Mr Golli yet.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.
Tell them that I came, and no one answered.