Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
31 October 2010
21:2377732Charlie's escapade will probably fizzle out, and he'll have to return to the queue with all the representations that have been made.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
31 October 2010
21:4777737the issue of "fair" is a complex one, we all have different interpretations on the matter.
dave loves to use this word.
in order to further the intellectual discussion on this subject, may i ask the following question?
are barak obama's buttocks fair?
i somehow doubt it.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
31 October 2010
21:5477738I'm not keeping up with this. I'd appreciate a simple explanation.
Charlie promised to "Fight Port Privatisation". How, exactly, is his proposal *not* port privatisation?
This is a genuine question.
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 658- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 660
31 October 2010
21:5677740In the words spoken in Kelly's heroes [ whats with the negative waves moriarty] lets wait and see if the port is to be sold off, then what are the alternative do you want the French to own it ? do you want Dubai ports to own it ? or is Charlies idea the best option. Yes it would be nice for it not to be sold! How many would like it to go abroad because of the dogma against the blues.
beer the food of the gods
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
31 October 2010
22:1077742My number one concern is not some weired romantic notion of keeping out foreigners. I like the Trust Port model and I'd be devastated if Charlie broke his promise and allowed the Port to be privatised (in any form).
I'm doing my best to phrase my questions in an unbiased way. I really want to believe that Charlie is keeping his election promise and myt question was seeking to gain an understanding of how he's doing it.
FYI, anti-blue dogma is irrelevant. It's simply a question of preventing privatisation AFAIC (which apparently *is* the blue position anyway!!).
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
31 October 2010
22:1577743We still come back why will they not let us the public vote on it,after they said they would by leting us vote one way or the other it would end it all and we would have to go along with the outcome of the vote.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
31 October 2010
23:3377750some interesting points raised, i do not see the problem with foreign ownership, most of our utilities are.
i doesn't matter which particular political colour sells it off, both gwyn and charlie were just spouting party lines.
matt
it was always going to be privatised!
tom
dubai ports, dfds and sea france will be major sharholders in the people port plan!
vic
we can all vote once we have purchased a stake.
31 October 2010
23:4777751I really do not see what all the fuss is about with regards the port privatisation. There is only one way that Dover has any chance of investment in the town. That will be when it is in private hands.
It really does not matter one iota who actually owns it as long as it is not the crown commissioners or the like.
The country should be used to foreign ownership by now, the French own the water, the Germans own the trains, the Swedes own the wind farms, the Indians own the steel works (what is left of them) the Japs own the cars, and to top it all off the Finns are building P&O's new ships, how enterprising is that. As for us native british all we own is the bill when these utilities make a loss so stop pissing around and accept the inevitable PLEASE.
Guest 691- Registered: 24 Oct 2009
- Posts: 45
31 October 2010
23:5477752What a defeatist attitude!
"In this world there are 10 sorts of people - those that understand binary and those that don't."
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
1 November 2010
00:0177753the die is cast matt, it is just a matter of getting the best deal for dover.
all sides were committed to flogging the port off.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
1 November 2010
00:3177754There is so much ignorance being displayed on this thread, and so many posters who misunderstand Charlie's proposition that I am beginning to despair of most of you.
The formal people's bid for the port goes to Downing St at 11am tomorrow (Monday). If lots of you object to that, be there with your banners.
Even the late unlamented Labour government wanted to sell the port. Keeping it as a Trust port unable to borrow to finance expansion would condemn Dover to another 50 years of stagnation. Allowing it to be sold off to private foreign interests would do the same and we would not see the Western docks developed during our lifetime.
I urge all of you to make the effort to find out what the Peoples' Port is all about and to stop putting out disinformation and party-political jibes until you have. You may just be surprised.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
1 November 2010
00:4577755Correctamundo Peter. I've just sent Charlie an e-mail. Hopefully all will become clear shortly.
Hi Charlie,
You might be interested in thread from Dover Forum on subject.
http://www.doverforum.com/letters/viewtopic.php?id=5626
In essence loads of misconceptions running around which really need sorting out.
From also talking to people locally main ones seem to be:-
Fears about 'major shareholders' - 'dubai ports, dfds and sea france'.
What will locals get for their £10 - and would they get twice as much for £20 for example?
Who will appoint the 'board'? Who will be able to get rid of them? What remuneration will they get?
What money will go to the community? Who will chose how it is distributed?
Where will the £400m purchase price come from?
If I pay £10 will I get discount berthing for my yacht?
I really believe that the answers to these points need disseminating at the earliest opportunity.
Too many rumours flying around and not enough hard facts IMHO!
Best wishes as ever
Bob Frost
(p.s. the last question was my little joke. On the other hand were there to be a discount... )
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
1 November 2010
01:3977757Excuse me, Mr. Garstin! Your statement ''The formal people's bid for the port goes to Downing St at 11am tomorrow (Monday).'' This is wrong!
It is NOT the formal people's bid, but a bid from Mr. Charlie Elphicke MP, with the support of 150 people minus those present who were not satisfied.
Please don't patronise us!
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
1 November 2010
08:0277762peter,with little or no information what do you expect from us pleabs.all we heard from charlie is hot air and no firm information.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
1 November 2010
09:1477764Brian, that is what happens with any polititian of any kind, be they local councillors or MPs of any colour, we are only EVER get told the bare minimum to keep us quiet. The more intellegent, not me
, try to find out more by themselves.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
1 November 2010
09:2277766Howard. That would be to late to vote,you must read what I am saying,then read it again ,that way you might get it right,we were told that the locals would get the vote about if we like the sell to go ahead or not,your way would see it already gone. Keep your pounds in your pocket and spend it where you will see a retund even if it a pt of beer or two,you will see noreturn at all by giveing to the sell of the port.
Mr Garstin there was alot of meetings held over this sell sorry but i did not see you any of them or geting up and having your say,you are lucky you have seen a return of your £10 done by them eating at you very nice eating outlet but for the rest of us there would be none.
1 November 2010
09:2777768If the port was sold it would bring in loads of money for the goverment with all the cuts they are doing now the port will be gone and all the promises on the run up to the election that they have broken this will be the next one.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
1 November 2010
09:5377775No - Melissa, no promises would have been broken at all.
Lets go back to the situation pre-election.
The sale of the Port, with the Goldsmith scheme, just really needed a signature from a Minister to go ahead. If there was no change of government then the Port would already have been sold.
Charlie won a promise before the election from the Party Leadership to hold off and review the decision and that is what has happened.
During the election Cameron unveiled his 'Big Society' message.
This gave Charlie time to come up with and to develop an alternative to the Goldsmith Plan that chimed well with the 'Big Society' theme. One that addressed the key objections to the privatisation and gets the Port into local ownership.
This was an intelligent and pragmatic approach more likely to succeed than any dogmatic opposition to any sale at all.
It is interesting that The People's Port has won support from people accross the political spectrum and of no politics.
We have to face the facts.
The old Trust Port is outdated and offers no solution to the development of the Port in todays world. It also did little or nothing for Dover itself. Now is the time for change and Charlie has a way forward that will gain the maximum advantage for the Town and Port.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
1 November 2010
09:5777778I did go back Barry ,why then are we not geting the vote.?
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
1 November 2010
10:0277779FFS what are you lot like?
This thread displays all that is good and bad with internet fora.
From my understanding helped by posts from Bob, Peter and Vic (yes that Vic) the position is a s follows:
a) The Port is currently a Trust Port
b) as a Trust Port it is unable to borrow money and can only create funds for future investment in one of two ways - either through putting profits to one side or by creating a special levy on port users
c) The Port like any business needs regular investment to maintain its competitive edge and satisfy its customer base
d) The current set up limits the Harbour Board to donations to the community of £100.000 pa
e) Both the last government and the current one have indicated they would be comfortable with the Port being sold
f) The current management want to sell the Port as evidenced by the Port Revision Order request submitted to the Secretary of State for Transport
g) Doing nothing is not an option
h) It may be possible to request a Port Revision Order that would allow the Harbour Board to seek external investment and or borrowings, however I cannot trace that any Trust Port has made such a request
i) It may be possible to request a Port Revision Order that would allow the Harbour Board to set up a charitable trust to make more significant donations and/or grants to the local community, however I cannot trace that any Trust Port has made such a request
j) The Harbour Boards preference is a trade sale to the highest bidder, this is likely to lead to the Port ending up in foreign hands and NO investment into the local community
k) The "Peoples Port" proposal recognises that a sale is likely and is proposing a different vehicle (an Industrial & Provident Society) to effect the purchase allowing not only community participation, but also external investment from City Institutions, as well as borrowing. It also gives members a say on distribution of profits, membership of the executive board etc.
l) There might be other alternatives, however those that intimate that there are will not give any details and I certainly cannot think what they might be from my research
I think that pretty much summarises it
I think "The Peoples Port" proposal should be given a chance, though this should not preclude consider all options.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi