P&O problems
- Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 6,768
18 March 2022 11:39375653Like loads of others I shall be boycotting P&O until further notice.
(Further notice being an offer of a car and four passengers day return to Calais with a free bottle of wine)'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world' - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 22,814
18 March 2022 16:02375661Sums you up BobALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 6,768
18 March 2022 16:16375662What? A realist?'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world' - 18 March 2022 16:42375663Don't worry Nat to the rescue - I love it when she starts chanting 'shame on you' and then realises the crowd were chanting it at her!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/po-protestors-heckle-tory-mp-26502752The Gov likes this - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 22,814
18 March 2022 19:21375665Saw local conservative activists around the MP
When she was heckled about double standards
Is this how we treat employees now ?
Glad I'm retiredALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 6,768
19 March 2022 00:11375667New statement from P&O about why it sacked 800 staff without warning: ‘We took the view, in good faith, that reaching agreement on the way forward would be impossible and that the process itself would be highly disruptive, not just for the business but for UK trade and tourism.’
Looks like P&O have not even gone through 'proper channels' for fire and rehire (see below).
https://www.davidsonmorris.com/fire-and-rehire/#elementor-toc__heading-anchor-2
FWIW I heard Natalie talking this evening at Dover/Deal Conservative AGM.
She does believe that P&O have behaved disgracefully as do HMG who are reviewing all contracts with Dubai Ports Ltd
The Guardian sets out the legal position here as they see it :-
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2022/mar/17/what-are-the-legal-implications-of-po-ferries-sacking-800-staff
An EDM was tabled in Parliament last year as follows:-
That this House notes with alarm the growing number of employers who are dismissing and re-engaging staff on worse pay and terms and conditions, a practice commonly known as fire and rehire; agrees with the Government that such tactics represent an unacceptable abuse of power by rogue bosses, many of whom are exploiting the covid-19 crisis to increase profits at the expense of loyal staff who have risked their lives during the pandemic to keep businesses going; welcomes the Government’s stated commitment to tackle those shameful abuses; calls on the Government to publish the Advisory, Conciliation and Arbitration Service report into the practice received by Ministers on 17 February 2021; and further calls on the Government to outlaw this form of industrial blackmail, as is the case in other European countries, to protect UK workers from exploitation by unscrupulous employers.
Labour later introduced a bill:-
https://bills.parliament.uk/bills/2896
But did not receive Govt support.
(It did not appear to make fire and re-hire illegal, merely to set up a framework for negotiation from my reading of it - perhaps I am wrong?).
The ACAS report referred to is here:-
https://www.acas.org.uk/fire-and-rehire-report/html
To quote from it:-
A range of potential legal reforms and other interventions were suggested to either prohibit or to more strongly disincentivise the practice; while some urged caution in considering whether any particular remedy might create a worse problem than the one it is intended to address, for instance by driving more redundancies or business failures.
Suggested legislative options included: tightening up the law around unfair dismissal; enhancing the requirement and capacity for employment tribunals to scrutinise business’ rationale for change in relevant cases; protecting continuity of employment in fire-and-rehire-scenarios; and strengthening employers’ consultation obligations around proposed dismissals.
Personally I find it shameful that employees were not offered continuity of employment as a minimum. Looking at it cynically I suspect that P&O are trying to avoid a summer of industrial action on the ferries with the mass redundancies.
I keep on reading that 'dismissal and re-engagement' is illegal in Ireland, in France, in Spain and even in the EU as an entirety but can find no rules/legislation making it illegal, merely guidelines, as we have in this country on 'good practice' in such cases.
Perhaps it's another myth that 'obviously' we'd have been much better off in the EU based on nothing.
I'd be interested to learn otherwise.Button likes this'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world' - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 22,814
19 March 2022 06:48375668Glad to see your catching up Bob.
Although I'm fairly sure you would be aware of all of this .ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - 19 March 2022 07:27375670P&O employs a relatively small number of sea going French and Dutch staff none of whom have had their contracts terminated. Code de Travail prevents that sort of thing in France. No idea about Dutch employment legislation.
- Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,656
19 March 2022 07:35375671FWIW, the Irish Sun reports P&O's CEO as writing that the firm was "severing the contracts of all 800 Jersey-contracted seafaring colleagues with immediate effect” and that "We have entered into a new partnership with International Ferry Management (IFM) who are an international crewing company." The Irish papers do not appear to carry any 'it couldn't happen here' articles.(Not my real name.) - Button
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,656
19 March 2022 09:17375672Limiting the driving of ferries to competent masters is a necessary risk control mechanism: https://www.doverport.co.uk/operations/podomsc/ and training doesn't happen overnight:
https://www.doverport.co.uk/operations/pilotage-requirements/.(Not my real name.) - 19 March 2022 10:11375673Button wrote:FWIW, the Irish Sun reports P&O's CEO as writing that the firm was "severing the contracts of all 800 Jersey-contracted seafaring colleagues with immediate effect” and that "We have entered into a new partnership with International Ferry Management (IFM) who are an international crewing company." The Irish papers do not appear to carry any 'it couldn't happen here' articles.
Indeed. One of the many ironies here is that Irish Ferries were already ahead of the bandwagon having previously introduced similar crewing practices. - Captain Haddock
- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 6,768
19 March 2022 12:01375675ray hutstone wrote:Code de Travail prevents that sort of thing in France.
Unfortunately the Code de Travail is over 3,324 pages long Ray (some say this is why the French have no equivalent word for entrepreneur) and I'm not sure I have enough time left on this earth to read it, even in translation.
Perhaps you could be more specific?
This is not a case of fire and rehire or even renegotiating terms and conditions of service, and I would seriously like to know how anyone has legislation anywhere which would stop companies behaving like P&O.'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world' - 19 March 2022 14:20375676Captain Haddock wrote:Unfortunately the Code de Travail is over 3,324 pages long Ray (some say this is why the French have no equivalent word for entrepreneur) and I'm not sure I have enough time left on this earth to read it, even in translation.
Perhaps you could be more specific?
This is not a case of fire and rehire or even renegotiating terms and conditions of service, and I would seriously like to know how anyone has legislation anywhere which would stop companies behaving like P&O.
It is indeed a huge tome mixing both statutory requirements and good practice guidelines. I wrestled with it several times when I was managing systems development for Eurotunnel because the majority of the technical staff were French. I'd love to quote you chapter and verse but I can't. I was always led by the guidance of the HR departments on both sides of the pond. Wiki French version will tell you everything you might be curious about.
Otherwise, all I can say is trust me. It's a path I have followed too many times before. Or else just ask yourself the simple question - why were no non-UK staff treated similarly? It's been best practice since way back in my Townsend days for cross channel operators to employ native language speakers (usually in the purser's office, for obvious reasons). They have always been contracted under their own country's terms of employment. - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 22,814
20 March 2022 06:56375681Isn't it sad the way we are heading in uK
And whilst other countries differ
The Govt appears to sit back and allow it to happen ...
Maybe a rethink on these issues is well overdueALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS - 20 March 2022 08:06375683This could be a wake up call .I have signed the petition and made a strongly worded comment.The Trouble these days too many people don’t take an active interest in what’s going on around them .Do people listen take the time to look at what is going on around them .I maybe retired from politics but I still look and listen .Not many will stand up and get involved .
- 20 March 2022 10:31375684It has been widely reported and substantiated that the government were aware of DP World's plan before staff were informed and frog marched from the ships. Were they motivated to intervene? Did Schapps say "no way -we'll revoke your licence?"
No. Of course they didn't. DP World are an integral part of Sunak's half-witted idea of freeports. Cue much collective hand wringing until the story drops out of the news. Then the Colombian crewed ships will start sailing again.
If they had done this to French contract staff, no P&O ship would have stood a cat in hell's chance of tying up in Calais.
Draw your own conclusions.The Gov likes this - Weird Granny Slater
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,603
20 March 2022 11:21375685French workers are better at industrial action than British ones?The Gov likes this'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus - 20 March 2022 11:23375686We have to stand up for workers rights .The Gov likes this
- 20 March 2022 14:10375688Weird Granny Slater wrote:French workers are better at industrial action than British ones?
And that's it, is it? Glad to see you've absorbed all the legislative and political aspects.The Gov likes this - Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 22,814
20 March 2022 18:12375689There's quite a lot of legal stuff going on now, but because of who the company is, and they have supported financially the govt before today it's of no surprize they may of been aware before the workers .
To get cheap labour in place for when the workers were ejected didn't happen overnight.
It's the crocodile tears that get to me .
Hire and fire supported by this govt made it that much easier .
If this is allowed to happen , look out any other employee.ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS