Judith Roberts- Registered: 15 May 2012
- Posts: 637
Having taken my granddaughter (from Leicestershire) up to the Western Heights last week to see the Drop Redoubt and the Second World War remains which she found fascinating, I am astounded that anybody should consider the latter to be ugly and only worthy of demolition. Did history stop before 1939? Will future generations only want to see 19th Century and earlier buildings and artefacts?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
A good legend to go by, Howard, is Hengist and Horsa. It's based on history, and these two persons are brothers, from the tribe of the Jutes, who headed an army of Jutes and Angles and landed in Kent as allies of the Britons.
Hengist and Horsa are also known in legends in northern Germany, in areas where the Angles lived before settling in Britain, and in parts of Holland, in particular Frisia.
In these areas, Gable signs adorned with two rampant horse figures on house roofs were referred to as "Hengist and Hors.
It is reckoned that the Kentish White Horse Invicta is in connection to Horsa, our great great granddad from the Jutish side.
Herngist and Horsa settled in Kent permanently with their soldiers and families, and eventually fought Vortigern king of the Britons. This could possibly relate to the Arthurian legend, Arthur being a Briton.
The Jutes, who settled in Kent, got on well with the local Celtic population, with whom they joined as one people. The Germanic people found Brythonic too hard to learn, so the Cantii, the Celtic inhabitants of Kent, gradually began to speak Olde English.
Olde England Forever!
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
Right a quick in and out, firstly you should all go and listen to lorraines talk so you understand the Arthurian connection, secondly for Dover to even have a small part in this legend is worth hanging on too, I knew about this even before I met Lorraine. Next I would like help from all interested parties to organise a f2f meeting to put on the table what has been done to save the Heights in the pat, what is currently being done and what Can be done. I think this needs to happen whilst the outline plans are being mulled over that way we can have strategies in place to help the cause. Paul ypu said you wanted doer's, am afraid my gardening skills will never be any good, anything that can break my nails or ruin my hair is instantly dismissed, but I do have other skills that I can use and ideas that can be implemented.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Le Morte d'Arthur is as far as I understand it just a story as there is no proof King Arthur and his round table ever existed, they are no more fact than the tales that surround Robin Hood.
It is important that the town capitalises on its history but that needs a lot more support from English Heritage and their help to promote the Heights.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 761- Registered: 10 Jul 2012
- Posts: 115
And there was me expecting a simple answer to the Arthurian question!
Lara - have you got a date and location in mind for this f2f? Sounds like a really good idea. Behind the quibbles over details there are clearly a lot of valuable skills among the forum members that, if all brought together whilst 'the iron is hot', could be just what is needed to build on the current status rather than things just drifting back to the previous status quo.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Courtesy of
http://www.arthurian-legend.com/
King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table never existed in real life. They're purely figures of legend. There might have been someone called Arturus (or Riothamus) in Britain's distant past, but if there was, he was probably a Romano-British leader or military general campaigning against the marauding Saxon hordes in the 5th century AD. In that period of history, however, there was no such thing as knights-in-armour - horsemen didn't even use stirrups until much later, so they couldn't have worn and fought in armour. There are several theories about the location of the 'original' court of Camelot, and although research continues, these are irrelevances: King Arthur and his knights will always be figures of fantasy, and Arthurian legend should be appreciated for what it is: a large and unique body of wonderful early European literature.
Indeed Malory's Morte d'Arthur does mention Dover a number of times including in book 21 the landing of Arthur at Dover and the internment of Gawaine in the crypt of Dover Castle.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Lara/Mike - WHPS are already arranging something along these lines and I hope to have something to 'announce' at the weekend....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Hi Lorraine, well aware of the legends and also studied transcriptions of the medieval texts from which many of the legends spring. Legends, however nice they are, are not history and legends can be adapted to fit in pretty much anywhere. Sir Gawain has been interred in the crypt of the saxon Church that is now St Mary in Castro, but he has also been interred at several locations in the West Country and Wales, there are at least 4 different iron age hillforts or stone walled castle ruins that were definitely the 'real' Camelot, the 'real' sword in the stone can be found in locations as diverse as Spain, Brittany and several locations in the UK as well as being seen as a much more ancient metaphor for the casting of an iron/bronze sword in a stone mold, Bors, Lancelot and several other names associated with the arthurian set of legends come from different parts of the England, Wales or Northern France, depending on local legend makers' preferences and objectives. A lot of fun can be had with legends and a lot of tourist dollars extracted from giving the tourists a local adaption of a well known legend with something suitably old to go and see or an adventure through some dark subterranean tunnel or cave to get a taste of the myth.
But Dover has THE most amazing real history and heritage which is not so well or so widely known and the town, over many decades, has failed to capitalise on its place at the heart of our nation's soul.
Perhaps instead of a rant at members of this forum who want to preserve and protect the built heritage on the heights just as much as you yourself do and instead of harking back to previous pyrric victories which have failed to fulfill their early promises, it would be more productive to gain friends and influence people by using your undoubted historical knowledge and skill at argumentation to put forward a reasoned, fundable and constructive plan for the future of the heights on this forum that the undecided can get behind and the so-called pro developers (of whom I have not seen but one on this forum) can be persuaded to subscribe to.
Just occasionally, in fact more often than not, humour is just humour and a gentle good humoured tease is just a bit of fun, nothing more, nothing less.
Hi Howard, many who were born and bred here don't know anything of the legends either and just as many are barely aware of the extremely rich real history that exists all around them, so don't feel left out
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
Excellent posts by Neil and Ross. When I was doing my degree in British archaeology and ancient history, we were during my Anglo-Saxon year told not to get side-tracked with studies of King Arthur. The very mention of his name brought rolling eyes from the lecturer, a senior academic in the field. Arthur is just a cipher, a shadow that may, or may not have some vague basis in historical fact back in the obscure post-Roman period. However, to try to pin him, and the tales around him, to historical reality is akin to trying to touch a cloud. If there ever was any truth to the figure, it is so lost in time, that the tales surrounding him are virtually useless as a record of early Saxon history. He is as real as Beowulf or some of the colourful characters from Celtic mythology.
Arthur was not even mentioned in the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, let alone the battle of Barham Down between Dover and Canterbury - as far as I know that doesn't pop up until that compendium of tales Malory's 'Le Morte d'Arthur' in about 1470. Indeed, I'm not sure how Gawaine came to be anachronistically buried in the late Saxon Church St. Mary in Castro or Arthur visited Dover Castle. There is no clear evidence for any early Saxon fortification there at all - it is possible the Iron Age fort ramparts could have been utilised then, but there is no evidence of any built Saxon structure prior to the (very late) Saxon church. Even if there was a Burgh there, any remains were probably destroyed when Henry II built the Keep.
I suppose there may be some value in promoting Arthur in the manner Canterbury has promoted Chaucer's tales, but to promote any Malory derived Arthurian connection to Dover as real history is, I'm afraid, a disservice to history. Still, myths and legends can make the cash flow and that's how Arthur should be approached if he is to be utilised.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Gosh, this is like Ireland's west coast signs indicating where Columbus set sail for America after stopping over from Spain. Every village along the coast has a pub proclaiming to be the last place Columbus visited before sailing off in the wrong direction and missing Spain
Getting back to Farthingloe, there might be a possibility that Paul and Judith are thinking of the Western Heights WW 2 facilities. I was referring to the ones above Farthingloe, which are in a terrible state. So possibly a misunderstanding there.
The sites I saw this morning (above Farthingloe NOT W.H.) are full of wording that require the intervention of the Police - or relevant authority - to have them cancelled or painted over!
The things written there are definitely NOT something you'd want to see visitors coming across. So how's about getting at least this one sorted out?
Over to you, Paul.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Neil, you forgot to mention John the Baptist's index finger: there are at least 14 in as many churches as relics.
However, Lorraine has a good point: The Arthurian legend is one of Dover's legends, as too is my Ivanhoe piece. Ivanhoe did set sail from Dover to reach France and proceed to Austria, to bring the ransom for the release of his king, Richard the Lion Heart, who later appeared again in England - and guess where - to proclaim the unity of the English majority and the Norman lords.
We must promote our English history, which starts in Dover and the Kentish East Coast (Horsa and Hengist), and our Celtic history, which again starts at Dover, and remember that our Bronze Age Boat sailed many times past Samphire Hoe, the sailors pouring a libation to the Shores of Alban, headed towards Cornwall or to Calais in Gaul.
This was 750 years before Rome even had the first thatched-roof hut!
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
Thanks for the update Paul, myself and a few others would very much like to be part of that meeting, you have my contact details?
Lara2012pimblett@hotmail.co.uk 07843723703 in case you have mislaid them. Drop me an email to let me know what's been arranged before I start pulling people in for meetings.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#1410 - know what I am talking about Farthingoe Anti Aircraft Battery. Overgrown, graffiti strewn, forgotten, just like a lot of the Heights, but still important and doesn't deserve to be destroyed because you don't think it looks nice !!
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i don't see anything wrong with pushing the "king arthur" bit, nottingham have done o.k. with robin hood.
had arthur existed it would have been around the 5th century but all the stories and films show the characters in 12th century dress.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
For people's information, it is planned to be a public meeting in a couple of week's time, but I am confirming details etc.
Been nice knowing you :)
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
there was some anti aircraft enplacements along langdon cliffs,some had tunnels behind them.but they have all disapeard now for some unknown reason.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
1970s KCC 'eyesore clearance' - most of the above ground features were destroyed leaving a lot for the below ground structures in place
Hence why farthingloe AA battery is quite a rare site...
Been nice knowing you :)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
no more an eyesore than the castle if you pardon the pun.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Interesting posts from Phil and Neil (1408/1409) - legend has it's place in Dover's history but to truely capitalise on legend it needs to be something that has long lived in the general knowledge and in the blood of the town's residents, rather than an obscure reference from history. I like a good legend and 'ghost story' as much as the next person
#1418 - exactly Brian, too much of our recent history has vanished and ignored by the authorities and demolishing more isn't the way to go. Perhaps Alexander (#1410) if it is that bad you should do your bit and find the owner and offer to clear it up?
Neil (#1408) - humour and fun is a big part of what the Western Heights Preservation Society do, and I wouldn't be there without it. We don't take ourself too 'seriously' (though a lot of serious work goes on behind the scenes), we want to share our knowledge the best we can and certainly aren't up our own a***s or cliquey !!
Good to see Lara is keen for people to work together, be nice if others could too......
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
If we started knocking down every bit of history that had been targeted by graffiti spraying vandals we would soon have none left.
The "Arthurian" expedition to fight for Rome is a fairly late addition to the legends and possibly stems from the Roman withdrawal from these lands and the possible return of some legionaries, after serving their time and having made families here. In those days every church, abbey and monastery relied on pilgrims for income and all were desperate to claim relics of ancient figures. Most will know of the struggling Glastonbury Abbey's "discovery" of Arthur's tomb. A reference to Gawain's body being in the area would have been too good an opportunity to miss and a skull would have been easily procured. As Dover's rich, and verifiable, history goes there is more evidence for the Folkestone "serpent" than there is for any real Arthurian connection. Surely the point of this thread (if it has one any more) is that we have a very proud and visible history which we all want to see made safe and available to visitors.
For the town to prosper it is not feasible to have everything under tended vegetation so that a decreasing number of locals can can enjoy a quiet walk in the countryside knowing that there is a great fortress hidden and crumbling behind the ivy. Our heritage needs large scale investment so that it can be preserved and presented for the maximum number of people to enjoy. The CGI proposal may not be perfect but until somebody actually suggests an alternative that is workable (not just grass cutting and weed pulling) then it is a basis to work on. If we do nothing, how long before we are pulling the weeds from the High Street?
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour