Guest 761- Registered: 10 Jul 2012
- Posts: 115
Keith - yes, everyone concerned working together for an acceptable alternative would be the biggest result from this thread.
Hopefully Lara and Pauls' efforts to get a meeting of minds will produce results.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
MIKE;
From later postings (if im reading it correctly) lara has come round to the idea that working together is probably the best option, and building may well be included in this.
The blanket NO approach doesn't appear to give alternatives/flexibility
A meeting of minds would hopefully help
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
Keith, first of all I have not 'come round' to anything, there still should be no building on the heights and Farthingloe even if they would be better that the 'existing ugly homes' as on the WH which as a post has angered quite a few people and I have taken part of thhat post very personally as it has upset my mum What I am advocating is a group of ppl from all concerned organisations putting ideas on the table to ensure preservation/education/future joint working on not only the visible heritage but the Heights as a whole. I don't think that I should have to join WHPS to prove that I care about the heights, it needs more input from other minds to move forward. WHPS and others currently arnt sharing what they are doing so other than sorting out meetings of my own back, currently there is no collaborative working and those that live on the heights appear to be excluded.
Guest 750- Registered: 12 Apr 2012
- Posts: 72
It has to be a blanket no, on every case inc hotel/conference/War memorial, ppl should not be hoping/relying on a private companies 'promises' as the only way forward, the only way to save the Heights - this has never been ratified. The only way forward is what I have suggested above. What would hve happened if this development had not reared its ugly head, what were the existing plans, have they all just been dropped?
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Lara;
I apologise if any offence has been caused, throughout my contributins i have attempted to find out/listen to/watch those posting, from all sides, and thought from your posting of late that a gathering of minds was one to bring everyone together might well be the best for everyone involved.
There are a vast differences of opinions on this issue and looking at the postings it looks like it will e very difficult to bring minds together, but i do wish you luck.
and again i apologise to you or anyone that may have been offended by any of my view points
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
keith
lara was referring to post 1423.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
just thought i needed to clear things up howard
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
I can understand objecting to the housing, and even the hotel, but what is the problem with the War Memorial? Is it that the Grand Shaft barracks site is better off staying as it is? Or is it simply that anything which could attract large numbers of visitors to WH is a problem?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
there were no objections to the proposed war memorial prior to cgi putting in their planning application.
suddenly it became unpopular in some quarters.
Guest 764- Registered: 27 Jul 2012
- Posts: 82
Lara.
Deepest apologies if I have caused offence to you and yours. I just called the houses as I saw them. No offence was intended.
As for your last note:
"What would have happened if this development had not reared its ugly head, what were the existing plans, have they all just been dropped?"
The only plans that currently exist for the upkeep of the Western Heights to the best of my knowledge include grass cutting, hedge trimming, tidying, guided walks, and keeping an eye by those interested: reporting vandal damage etc.
Currently there are no plans to re-point, rebuild, conserve, open up, or carry out any structural work on any of the monument at all, just like the last 10+ years. (Save the repointing of the exterior wall of the Redoubt by English Heritage between 1994-1998 at a cost of approximately £250K).
And I think that's the point. A 'Blanket NO' gives no possibilities and the thing slowly falls down as it has been doing since about 1957 when the military pulled out.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Mike #1439 - that is the crux of our argument that you need to know the X money available so that it can go to a 'body' that could take this towards Lottery funding to get Y, to do Z amount of work.
Until that is known we can't make a proper judgement
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
"WHPS and others currently arnt sharing what they are doing so other than sorting out meetings of my own back, currently there is no collaborative working and those that live on the heights appear to be excluded."
Sorry you feel like that Lara. WHPS is a small charitable group with limited funds and limited opportunities to think further than the short term (6/8 months) as we don't have the capacity or money to get much further than this, but more importantly when you are dealing with 'other people assets' you have to work at their speed.
It has taken quite a long time to be able to get to a position to open the Grand Shaft for a dozen or so days this year from DDC, and for English Heritage it has taken a long time for us to prove the resposibility for the Drop Redoubt to a level that we are able to submit Scheduled Monument Consent works to them which we have done for the last year or so. Other than get volunteers to help at workdays and to man the heritage for events and walks, it is very limited to the to the amound of public engagement that can be done. Nothing is stopping anyone from coming up and helping us and we have a couple of Heights residents that do this regularly.
As mentioned for the first time in our existance we are being approached by EH for a longer term management agreement, along with the CGI plans, which have suddenly thrown us to another level....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
The proposed National War Memorial is a separate proposal that has been 'on the table' for some years now, has gained a large amount of support and is deliverable provided the will is there to make it happen. It will be a fitting tribute to all those from the Commonwealth that fell in the two World Wars who are not now remembered in one site. Letting their names be known will ensure that families and future generations can know and appreciate the sacrifice made.
As a side effect, the number of visitors will have a beneficial effect on the Western Heights by attracting investment to the preservation of the Drop Redoubt and the heights in general. Having large numbers of visitors in the town will also have a positive effect on the local economy. This is a side effect of the Memorials purpose but one that helps Dover and makes the funding for the memorial more obtainable.
A hotel on the Western Heights has long been a dream for some, including DDC and the Chamber of Commerce. The CGI proposals are an extension of this which includes the housing and other development they need to make it profitable for them and designed as one scheme in order to make funding available to one area, ie the Western Heights.
It is my own humble opinion that the National War Memorial should be given the support it still needs and be made a reality ASAP. It is also my own opinion that the CGI proposals, because of the potential investment in the Western Heights and adjacent infrastucture, could be a good starting point for discussion. The Town Council's response to the plans was that, "we question the lack of affordable housing in the scheme and would like to see guarantees in place for the preservation of the historical sites" (I paraphrase).
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Jeff, it is rather confusing now.
You say: "the same as the existing ugly, concrete houses already there".
These houses are not ugly by any means, but were constructed in a period when the Heights were not a Scheduled Ancient Monument, and so do not constitute a precedent.
To build there now, would do so, as it would be a precedent to build in the SAM area.
The whole campaign to save the Heights would be lost out of principle, as more houses would be built as time went by, using the precedent of already having built on an SAM (should the current planning application be approved), which is in fact the CGI proposal.
CGI are proposing to make a precedent to build on a Scheduled National Monument for DDC to follow up on in the future whenever.
Again you say: "reporting vandal damage etc."
I tried bringing to attention very bad words sprawled on the WWII Farthingloe cement sites, and have been told by Paul that I was trespassing! There was no sign indicating a private footpath, and no-one who I met there told me I was trespassing, but instead said "hello".
This is not encouraging, it doesn't encourage people to bring to attention vandalism in some form or another, by saying: "you were trespassing". That's like turning it all around and saying now that I should feel guilty!
Was I trespassing or not? I'd like to know at this point.
What made me ring the alarm bells was that the wording I saw incites murder of specific people. This must be wrong, and surely, unless this is sorted out, there is no moral right to promote a WW memorial, if the concerned people can't even get the most obnoxious of incitements down from an already existing WW site! Or not?
So perhaps we should start with removing offensive language from historic sites, such as the one at Farthingloe, doing what can be easily done without any great expense, before we can deem ourselves fit and worthy to run a WW memorial!
Finally, I had been of the opinion that the Western Heights residents were promoting discussions to see what can be done now to propose enhancement of the Heights in a basic manner. Now it seems now that, with WHPS, everything has dropped back to the CGI proposal as the centre of discussion and as a pre-condition to any form of agreement.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#1454 - As I told you above feel free to report any graffiti to the 'authorities' or getting off of your a**e and contacting the owner or offering to remove it - I have my own work cut out, as do the volunteers with trying to keep an eye on the 250 acres of so of the Heights without straying into other areas...... I was merely pointing out that it isn't public ground just as my own garden doesn't have flashing neon lights telling people it is private !!
Also re #1454 - I cannot see any comments from WHPS other than a founder if the society giving their own private views.... I have only given one public view from WHPS which reflects that of the Dover Society
Can you tell me Alexander how you are proposing to build visitor centre and village hall without applying for permission to build on a scheduled ancient monument for which you are trying to stop a precedent being set? Precedents are already set for building on the SAM as the prison service have several new buildings since the protection was given in the 1960s.....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 764- Registered: 27 Jul 2012
- Posts: 82
Alexander.
Offensive graffiti should be reported to the Anti-Social Behaviour Unit of Kent Police.
"And I think that's the point. A 'Blanket NO' gives no possibilities and the thing slowly falls down as it has been doing since about 1957 when the military pulled out."
The thing needs ££££, and there isn't any.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
The police will do nothing about graffiti on private property unless it is clearly visible from the highway, AND offensive, AND there is a reasonable prospect of catching the perpetrators AND obtaining a conviction for criminal damage.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
which translates as don't bother reporting it because nothing will be done.
Guest 764- Registered: 27 Jul 2012
- Posts: 82
Thanks Peter.
Live & learn !
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
They will inform the landowner, if readily known
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi