Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Recently I read an interesting article - can't remember where, possibly somewhere on the Web, that when the Grand Shaft was due to be renovated, the costs were estimated to run into many, many millions of pounds, but that later it was realised that the costs - pointing the walls etc., went only into a few hundred thousand pounds.
The author is a certain Paul Aka Scotchie
I think that the costs for the upkeep of ex-military structures on Western Heights are far less and lower than many may believe.
That's why I asked Paul from the start to give an estimate of the costs, but I never received a reply to this question.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
different ball game really alex, the grand shaft is now in perfect nick so i doubt
whether it had ever got into the same disrepair as the fortifications which are also on a much larger scale.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Stop talking b******s Alexander !!!!
I am unaware of that article that I apparently wrote, plus I have already told you (and you responded) that just to repoint the outside of the Drop Redoubt on the scarp side about 15 years ago cost English Heritage quarter of a million pounds
I also told you that there was an estimate at the time of about £10-20million to get the Drop Redoubt up to A1+++++ standard but a lot could be achived for a lot less to make a start on the restoration
You then went into your "misquoting me" phase based on these numbers
I seriously suggest you get your FACTS RIGHT, listen to what other people have said and also remember what you yourself has said !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
another reason that we need more footfall up the heights is fly tipping, here we have garden waste dumped there today.
this structure i believe to be on the list that w.h.p.s hope to save sometime in the future.
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
#983, I recall I also gave some ballpark estimates way back in this thread based on quotes I have had for similar but much smaller projects, selective amnesia on Alexander's part.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
#969 - Lorraine - why no mention there of the proposals for the Heritage that are part of the application ?
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
that was my first thought paul as it looked too neat and tidy, then i looked around and couldn't connect it with the vegetation around there.
am i right about it being in you future plans?
i remember keith posting on here about using the steps as a short cut before they were closed off.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Yes Howard WHPS would like to be able to open the North Entrance road tunnel to the public at some point in the future as we have done most of the work we can at the Drop Redoubt without big investment and this is hopefully a future project...
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Sorry, Paul, I confused the Grand Shaft for the Drop Redoubt.
My apologies. The Drop Redoubt was repointed for £250.000. as you rightly point out.
Although the initial estimate to get it to A1 standard was £10-20 million.
As we can see, essential works can be carried out for a lot less than it would cost to get the whole area of Napoleonic sites on Western Heights up to A1 standard.
So if we're looking at getting essential works done, we might be talking of a few million pounds every 10 years or so, enough to keep the defensive sites from decaying.
This would be a far better option than investing tens of millions of pounds in the Drop Redoubt, tens of millions in the former barracks area, tens of millions in the eastern moats, tens of millions in the western moats and so on.
So what I am asking, is what you estimate should be done, a A1 achievement for the whole Napoleonic area for £100 million, or an essential upkeep job for a few million pounds?
Unless we know this, it's hard to keep an overview of what you consider should be spent up there.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Perhaps you need to understand the Western Height some more to know what you are campaigning about??????
£250,000 was the ACTUAL cost 15 years ago to repoint some of the outside walls of the Drop Redoubt
vs
£10-20 million was an BALLPARK to get the Drop Redoubt up to "Dover Castle" standard with full renovation, utilities, access, draining, health and safely, restoring buildings, etc, etc, etc, etc to a stage you could walk in the door and switch a light on and open to the public
As I have said all along there is a whole scale of things that COULD be done from 'firefighting to stop damage' to full restoration
Why though do you think a 'few million pounds' is an easy thing to do with no match funding and dwindling opportunities for funding?
Why do you think i have these numbers all to hand, full assessments cost money and I am not a historic building restoration expert?
Why do we have to keep going through this ????
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 675- Registered: 30 Jun 2008
- Posts: 1,610
Only six more posts to go and there will be 1,000 postings on this, and Alex is still ignoring all but his own.
Politics, it seems to me, for years, or all too long, has been concerned with right or left instead of right or wrong.
Richard Armour
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
just tried a late night login indeed we are nearing the 1000 posts mark, feeling a bit uncomfortable about some of the posts though.
alex
please remember that w.h.p.s. are ordinary people that work all week and spend a lot of their spare time grafting to keep our heritage as up to scratch as possible.
not to be confused with developers.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Howard, this simply does not make sense.
I posed, not for the first time, an essential question, and have never confused WHPS with developers, and have also specifically recognised their hard work as volunteers.
You have presented a weakness in arguments there, as quite clearly, an important question of public interest is not being answered by people advocating in front line the building of 700 odd houses, hotel and conference centre on two protected areas.
Rather than say how much money they think is needed, and for what kind of works, and for which results, it is all come down to reproaching me for these intelligent questions and implying I've been stating things which quite clearly I have never stated, neither here nor on any other public domain!
As far as I'm concerned, you have all lost the argument there, and have degenerated into presenting me in a different light.
This is verging on to press-ganging and avoiding answering the most essential of questions. I shall withdraw from this thread most final
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Incidentally, today I spoke with a neighbour who is a bus driver, works in Dover and is from Dover, and he told me he had never heard of these proposals to build houses, hotel and conference centre on Western Heights and Farthigloe.
He agreed that these two areas are among the only green areas we have where people can walk free of heavy traffic and pollution.
He was aware of the Whitfield urbanisation plans, but was shocked when I explained that 6,000 new houses there could equate to a population the size of Dover's present population, that they'd be travelling every day to Dover down Barton Road to the shops and wherever, past all the schools along the main road, and up London Road back to Whitfield.
We'd have essentially the same thing going on at Farthingloe and on Western Heights, once developments kicked off there.
And we have been told quite clearly, by Paul S and others, that the ONLY reason they want these urbanisation schemes in the protected areas, is NOT because we need those houses, but because there is a lack of funds to maintain ex-military defences on Western Heights.
While Protect Kent and Lorraine have ably pointed out to us that DDC want these extra houses in order to get New Home Bonus funds, and NOT because we need these new houses.
DDC, as we know, will have a 40% finding cut over a 4 year period, starting from last year. So all in all, we know that these urbanisation schemes have nothing to do with "needing" 9,000+ extra houses over the coming few decades, from Whitfield to Guston to Farthingloe, but with garnering funds needed for entirely different matters.
This just about explains everything!
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
But Alex, this means you'll withdraw from the thread before it gets to 1000
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Neil, DDC want "growth points status" and New Home Bonus funds, so as to get the district budget in order for a few years and perhaps a few years more.
So, once they have used up these "growth point status" benefits (whatever they equate to only God and Paul W know
), and once they have used up the New Home Bonys funds, what then?
Another 9,000 houses in 20 years time or what?
Meanwhile, where would all these new residents work, in London?
Where would their children work, in London?
And HOW MUCH POLLUTION will we be breathing in when walking along Barton and Frith Roads, Folkestone and London Roads, and Tower Hamlets?
What about the children going to school on these areas?
Have DDC done a pollution measurement lately?. Have they made a pollution assessment in their grandiose plans?
Well I bet they haven't!
Have DDC done an employment assessment in their urbanisation plans?
Neil, any project needs to be thought out, discussed and assessed, many times over.
DDC Local Government have only counted as far as 5 on their fingers to see how much they can garner in funds, that's as far as it went.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Do we really know that?
Where do you propose the current children in Dover live in the future, if we build no new houses?
As has been pointed out many times the Whitfield proposals are spread of 30 years - i.e. 200 houses per year and further the development will include community facilities (new primary school, new doctors surgery etc.)
Please try to deal with the facts as documented in the planning paperwork rather than your perception of the facts; all the things you claim have not been considered are fully documented in those papers.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Been nice knowing you :)
