Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alex - the homes will be built only if the demand is there. They wont be built unless there is a market demand regardless of planning facilitation. No-one will build houses they cannot sell.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
quite a lot of info on here since my last post.
neil;
thanks for info a lot to digest
akexander;t yu might get frustrtated, others to get frustrated by your misquoting of the w heights developement.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Keith, this is bullying on your part.
Trying to make one side look humiliated and feel shamed to silence!
1984 George Orwell and commissars!
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
Chris is correct (#1004), Dover is dying on its feet, our children have moved away ... not because of housing but the lack of prospects ... jobs. Like many of our friends kids, they have gained excellent degrees and been offered jobs elsewhere.
What graduate jobs are there in this area? Now with the demise of Pfizer's, not many and that SWWood (#1005) is what we should be looking at.
There is no logic of providing 'Executive' homes on two of our major assets - which could be gently exploited for tourism the nationally acclaimed Ancient Monument and the unspoiled AONB Arthurian valley of Farthingloe.
National Planning Policy Framework (NPPF) section 116 p27 indicates that planning applications for major development in designated areas must have exceptional circumstances and it must be demonstrated that they are in the public interest. In the Local Development Framework p40 para 3.30 states that the individual sites for extensive development are: Dover Waterfront - 300 homes; Dover Mid Town - 100 homes; Former Connaught Barracks - 500 homes; Whitfield urban extension - 5,750 homes giving 6,750. Neither Western Heights nor Farthingloe were mentioned.
Any more and DDC only has to look at the NPPF p6 para 17, which encourages the effective use of land by reusing brown-field sites, such as the St James area and the Buckland Paper Mill site. Plus, of course, the No Use Empty Properties Initiative - which DDC says it actively supports.
As for schools, Ray Newsam (#1010) NPPF p17 para 72 states that the Government attaches great importance to ensuring that a sufficient choice of school places is available to meet the needs of existing and new communities. LDC-Open Space Policy and Standards (LDC-OPS) requires designated play areas for developments of 15 family dwellings or more. The China Gateway International (CGI) Social and Economic Report p22 para 9.78 states that their proposed development anticipates having 1,572 residents and as I have already noted above (#969), CGI plan 705 residences. Regarding schools CGI P&R p31 para 7.16 says that local schools will cope.
Finally, on this posting, Health Care. CGI have the same cavalier attitude. In their Transport Assessment document (CGI-TA) p23 para 4.2 19, the White Cliffs Medical Centre, in Folkestone Road appears to be the main provider of the GP service for the proposed 1,572 residents. The company give Buckland Hospital as providing hospital facilities.
I note that Reg Hansell - the great destroyer of the proposed £20 Dover Community Hospital has jumped on the Western Heights/ Farthingloe bandwagon. As a result of his and his cronies fight to block the £20 Community Hospital that I won, this once fine hospital is now a mere Health Facility. Hence, the residents of the CGI proposed development would be obliged, as are the people of Dover, to go to William Harvey Hospital at Ashford - down the A20 for such services. Thus, as far as the proposed development is concerned, defeating the objective of sustainability.
Lorraine
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
#1023, nobody is bullying you, Alex, merely pointing out that your submissions to this thread lack consistency and have become somewhat repetitive. You keep railing at imagined opposition to your views like a latter-day Don Quixote and seem to feel that if someone doesn't fully support your view they must somehow be 'on the other side'.
There are many people involved in this discussion and it's not a matter of taking sides. You have resurrected Orwell in order to denigrate your fellow forumites, how long before Godwin's law is invoked?
If you think you are being bullied, humiliated, and made to feel ashamed, it's a matter between you and the forum management.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
SWWood- Location: Dover
- Registered: 30 May 2012
- Posts: 261
Lorraine, you may have misunderstood my question. If this development is stopped, what next for the Western Heights in particular? I presume he plan would be for more of the same, i.e. leave it to the good ladies and gentlemen of WHPS to protect "The most elaborate and impressive surviving example of early 19th century fortification in England".
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
I would never have said Keith was bullying Alexander, he was just pointing out what some of us think.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
always a pleasure to meet forum members for the first time, this morning i met two.
activist on many fronts alex and eminent local historian, author and also campaigner on many fronts not least a hospital for dover, lorraine sencicle.
alex took me by surprise as i had no idea what he looked like but lorraine is known to all.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
We had a fantastic 2 hours from 10 am to midday running a petition, six of us based along Biggin Street Cannon Street.
It was a pleasure to meet Howard, whom I recognised from the Forum, and to pose for a flash.
In this short span of time, I used up all my 10 sheets, 100 signatures all counted, and Lorraine had a similar number.
About half the local people who signed were at knowledge of the development plans, the other half had been unaware.
Many Australians and Canadians willingly signed, about 10% of the total number, and two Belgians, and a number of people from other parts of England and, going by the accent, one from Scotland.
The majority were, however, local people.
One lady was undecided, said she'd ask her family and neighbours, and later came back and signed immediately, stating that no-one wanted to know her any more because she hadn't given her support
Only two people (who I spoke with) said they were in favour of development going ahead in the two areas, and so didn't sign.
Some were in a hurry, but of these, a couple came back later and enquired, and then applied their signature.
Not one person signed the petition without being at knowledge of what it was about.
I was taken aback by such great public interest and enthusiasm.
Thanks Howard for the publicity
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Lara and the rest of the group were positioned along Cannon Street.
She'll be no doubt giving her account
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
What was the heading/statement/quetion on your petition Alexander.
If the "NO's" win, presumably you will all be pleased to know that you have given the Heights the death sentence ? How long will it before walls start to cave in ? Paul has put up some photos showing the structural damage - which will get much worse if nothing is done.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the wording of the petition was a bit ambiguous it said "sign here to stop the evil scotchie building all his houses on the western heights and farthingloe then concreting over any green space remaining".
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Roger, firstly I went home, had a cup of coffee, then off to work.
Presently I'm waiting for the plaster to dry before the next phase later on this afternoon.
I'm sure Sarge will send a troupe of men up there before the walls cave in and have them replastered and painted over.
The statement is as follows:
China Gateway International have applied for outline planning permission to build houses 85 - and a hotel + conference centre on Western Heights - Dover's Nationally important Ancient Monument.
Also 521 houses + 90 apartment block in the protected (AONB) Farthingloe Valley.
We are against this, are you?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
No bias then.
Roger
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Nope, Roger! No bias.
I'd estimate that about half the local people who signed, knew of the plans, and were outright against them without any further explanation needed. Including some from Walmer and Folestone.
People read the statement before signing, and I noticed equal enthusiasm among Britons from other counties, Australians and Canadians.
The word is spreading far and wide, Roger, and now we must try to involve Australians and Canadians, all Olde England and Scotland beyond the Wall.
When I received marching orders, instructions came to keep it all secret, we marched out and in the 2 hours assigned us by Kent County had continuous involvement from the Public. Inspector Howard came across us, though.
Lorraine told me that even two Labour Party campaigners who were among a group not far from us came and signed my sheet, I hadn't noticed they were from that group, but do recall that we got on peacefully wit them, as we hailed passers-by for one or the other cause.
Three signataries were from a coach that had come for the regatta, I tired my best to appease them for its absence, and suggested some lovely areas to visit.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
ok,ok they are going to build 90000 houses in folkestone road,another 100,000 at farthinglow,and 60000 houses on the western hights.
Guest 685- Registered: 5 May 2009
- Posts: 85
One of the tricks in teaching is making the deliberate mistake particularly when you have reason to believe they have other things on their mind. In my submission of yesterday I made a deliberate mistake, twice ... as I was sure that those who oppose Lara, Alexander and myself are not interested in why we feel so strongly about protecting the National Ancient Monument of Western Heights and the Arthurian Farthingloe Valley against wanton development.
My deliberate mistake was in my paragraph on the £20million Dover Community Hospital, that I went through the legal process to secure for Dover, but whom one of the contributors, Reg Hansell postings #1009/#1013 along with a couple of other politicians successfully blocked.
Thanks, Howard for publishing the pix #1028 - and the kind words.
I am please to note that Cllr Roger Walkden was happy with the wording of our petition (#1031) - we make a point of telling the truth. Of note, later a representative of CGI told us that they had been told the heading we used was a lie.
Alexander has given some of the views that folk expressed who signed our petition; I am collating all of the views expressed and will publish a full account on this site. Suffice to say our petition was aimed at getting a 'snap-shot' of public opinion. KCC Highways allowed us two hours: 10.00hrs-12.00hrs in Biggin Street and Cannon Street but not Market Square. Public Opinion is strongly against the development.
Finally, SWWood (#1026) asks what next for Western Heights if the development proposal is stopped.
There are two answers to this question, in my opinion of DDC/English Heritage have their way, the site will be left to the WHPS, WCCP and others who voluntary make an effort, with increasing financial cutbacks. In a few years time another grand proposal will come along to develop the site. This is what as happened since I successfully brought my case in 1992/3.
My own feelings have not changed since that time. I strenuously believe that Western Heights desperately needs both TLC and the FINANCE to take it off the Heritage at Risk Register and turn it the major tourist asset we strived for in the 1990s. This has to be front led by DDC and English Heritage with the same level of commitment as DDC has shown in their support for the CGI proposal - I have copies of their letters ... Cut backs are no excuse.
More immediately, there is need for electricity, water, car parking and toilets in the vicinity of the Drop Redoubt and Grand Shaft.
Then Dr Gibbs recommendations (Built Heritage Conservation Framework for Dover Western Heights p175-176) should be taken into consideration. These include the drawing up of an integrated conservation management, following public consultation that is adopted by stakeholders and implemented.
A Conservation Plan, consistent with the BHCF's approach, should then be drawn up and to achieve this plan the stakeholders should actively show commitment to implement them.
Does that answer your question, SWWood?
Lorraine
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Thank you peter/jan for your comments, I firmly believe that we have forumites with ideas but paul scotchie points out the dangers of libel we do have to be careful, thats all my comments have been about, whilst i would encourage alexander/lorraine if thats there belief to post thats fine but if it contains libel thats a different matter
Lorraine mentioned the comany stated the leaflet produced was a lie, don't get me wrong i know some big comanies try to frighten to silence people, but all that you say should it go the route of court cases you will need to justify, not just say well i assumed, as has been said on here at times by alexander.
This is just me trying to help, i wouldn't want to see any forum member having to go that route.
Whilst on here other issues have been raised and probably need correction(or should i say my view)
the hospital issue, no one blocked anyone, what happened was, there were to many different ideas unwilling to find neutral ground, so the trust was able to walk away laughing that the activists couldn't even decide amongst themselves what they wanted.
My last point has to be, as iv asked alexander,
and now rogers asking
if the developement doesn't happen, the western heights doesnt have dosh to survive, thus we will see it go down hill, all the things lorraine/alexander want for the area costs dosh, wheres it to come from?
did the petition say, if theres a no vote, the western heights will wither and die?
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
I have disagreed with Keith on many posts , but I have to add my twopenny worth , at no time did I read Keiths posts to Alex as bullying , he was ( in my opinion ) trying very nicely to point out that the risk of libel exisits if posts are not accurate . Just because a view is held it dosnt mean that anyone has the right to express it in a potentially libelous manner .
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
thank you sarah,
i hope we can continue to disagree if the need arises,
but i try to avoid the legal stuff lol
sometimes on the forum trying to help, actually is seen as hindering
but i do try to help. more so when the signs are there,
anyway sarah you always know where im coming from, from the heart, open and honest, say it as it is some like it some dont,
all makes a healthy forum though as i keep saying
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
