Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
meaning there isn't one
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
I have my own website, and my own life, for the English Church.
This is not the place for me to discuss matters of Faith, Keith.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
proves my point
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
My website has a much better appearance than that, Peter. It also has a different link.
I'll keep it secret.
Try this link:
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
a secret website how silly
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Jesus was born in secret, Keith.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Except for the small matter of a planetary conjunction arranged by Yahweh in order to advertise the fact!
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Do you actually know any scripture Alexander? Jesus' birth was far from secret. It was well advertised and the circumstances of His birth detailed in full hundreds of years in advance and, as well as the planetary conjunction mentioned by Peter above, there was a multitude of the heavenly host hanging around Bethlehem telling shepherds, who went on to tell others. The wise men from the East, drawn by the signs in the heavens popped by for a visit and the Jewish royal family, high priest and scribes got to know (even if they heard a bit late) as well as a result.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
The secrecy was in Jesus' early years when the Holy Family fled to Egypt. I have visited St Sergius church in the Cairo suburb of Maadi, the crypt of which is the grotto where the family hid out.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
That's right, Neil, God told Joseph to take his Wife and Son to Egypt.
The three wise men were also ordered not to return to Herod, who later set out to slaughter children in Bethlehem in an attempt to kill the Messiah.
So his birth was in secret except to those who were supposed to know.
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Three Wise Men? The Bible doesn't say how many there were, it mentions that they brought gifts of Gold, Frankincense and Myrrh, but never says how many wise men there were. They were warned about Herod's duplicitousness in a dream and so returned a different way. Joseph was warned of the impending slaughter by an angel of The Lord in a dream. The Israelites knew the where of The Christ's birth and the faithful among them probably had a pretty good idea, from the prophets, of the when. His birth was not a secret, it was long expected and anticipated, but when it happened, not known of by the majority.
Mat 2:1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the east came to Jerusalem,
Mat 2:2 saying, "Where is he who has been born king of the Jews? For we saw his star when it rose and have come to worship him."
Mat 2:3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
Mat 2:4 and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
Mat 2:5 They told him, "In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
Mat 2:6 "'And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.'"
Mat 2:7 Then Herod summoned the wise men secretly and ascertained from them what time the star had appeared.
Mat 2:8 And he sent them to Bethlehem, saying, "Go and search diligently for the child, and when you have found him, bring me word, that I too may come and worship him."
Mat 2:9 After listening to the king, they went on their way. And behold, the star that they had seen when it rose went before them until it came to rest over the place where the child was.
Mat 2:10 When they saw the star, they rejoiced exceedingly with great joy.
Mat 2:11 And going into the house they saw the child with Mary his mother, and they fell down and worshiped him. Then, opening their treasures, they offered him gifts, gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Mat 2:12 And being warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they departed to their own country by another way.
Mat 2:13 Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream and said, "Rise, take the child and his mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you, for Herod is about to search for the child, to destroy him."
Mat 2:14 And he rose and took the child and his mother by night and departed to Egypt
Mat 2:15 and remained there until the death of Herod. This was to fulfill what the Lord had spoken by the prophet, "Out of Egypt I called my son."
Mat 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he had been tricked by the wise men, became furious, and he sent and killed all the male children in Bethlehem and in all that region who were two years old or under, according to the time that he had ascertained from the wise men.
Mat 2:17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by the prophet Jeremiah:
Mat 2:18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, weeping and loud lamentation, Rachel weeping for her children; she refused to be comforted, because they are no more."
Mat 2:19 But when Herod died, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared in a dream to Joseph in Egypt,
Mat 2:20 saying, "Rise, take the child and his mother and go to the land of Israel, for those who sought the child's life are dead."
Mat 2:21 And he rose and took the child and his mother and went to the land of Israel.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Of-course you are right, Neil, that the Prophets predicted the birth of the Messiah.
Micah predicted he would be born in Bethlehem, but the time of his birth was not clear in Prophecy.
It was known he would be born to the House of King David, but quite a number of Jews could trace back their family to David.
Isaiah stated he would be born to a Virgin, but Mary Mother of Jesus did not tell everyone at the time that she had conceived by the Spirit.
Joseph knew, Mary's cousin Elizabeth knew, but it was generally kept secret.
When Jesus spoke to the crowds, he often did this in parables, but explained the meaning to his twelve disciples.
He did not tell even them he was the Messiah until shortly before the Sacrifice.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
interesting point from neil about the number of wise persons, most of us assumed there were 3 because there were 3 different gifts.
just shows how we sometimes just skim over a subject without fully reading through.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
just as intreasting,but from a sifferant angle.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
So we are no where nearer knowing what an English church is
does it recognise the queen
whats it beliefs
maybe neil can enlighten us?
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 1694- Registered: 24 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,087
Sorry Keith, Alexander's loyalty to an English Church is connected with his interpretation of post Roman English history and a contention that Christianity was established on these shores by the wife of a Saxon King (even though there is good evidence that there were Christians living and worshiping in this country from at least the mid 2nd Century AD and there have been some early Church (late 1st Century) histories, extra-scriptural and unconfirmed (also contradicted by other early Church writings), that place Simon the Zealot, one of the Twelve here in England not long after the Roman Conquest of 43AD). Also connected is his, in my view, correct repudiation of the Apolostolic succession claimed by the Church of Rome and the Catholic Popes.
At the risk of stirring everything up again, as far as I can ascertain from Alexander's posts, he attends service at the Anglican Church of St Mary's in Castro.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Yes I worship at the Church of Saint Mary at the Castle.
My repudiation of the papal claim to be the successors of Saint Peter is based on the Epistles of Saint Peter in the New Testament, who proclaimed Mark his son, with the spiritual meaning of successor. This successor is Mark the Evangelist.
My interpretation of the English Church is intended as the Church of the English, who descend from the Celts and the Anglo-Saxons-Jutes. Therefore, the English Church was founded by King Ethelbert who converted to the Christian Faith of his wife Queen Bertha of the Franks.
He established the first Church of the English in Canterbury, and restored to ecclesiastic function a former Celtic church in Canterbury - dedicated to St. Martin of Tours.
Previous Christianity in Britain (and its later development) is referred to by me as Celtic Church, or Celtic Churches, namely the Christianity of the Britons, the Scots and Picts and the Irish.
In fact I have written articles on Celtic saints, such as Saint Ninian and Saint Kentigern.
Prior to the arrival of the Anglo-Saxons-Jutes, the country was called Britain, up to the Wall, beyond which the Scotic and Pictish kingdoms were situated, as well as the Briton kingdom of Lothian (people who had possibly settled there from south of Hadrian's Wall).
Britons, Scots, Picts and Irish are all Celts, hence I make a distinction between Celtic Churches and the English Church.
Finally, the English Church, whose history starts with King Ethelbert and Queen Bertha, could not have had queen Elizabeth as its head, Keith. You're referring to the ecclesiastic establishment initiated by Henry VIII, however, our priories and many of our churches in Dover existed long before Henry VIII.
So too did Canterbury Cathedral and so many other churches and priories in England.
While I appreciate you have difficulty in understanding this, Keith, the English Church was conceived in the Spirit in the sixth century in Kent, when a Kentish King accepted the Faith made known to him by his royal Consort who carried the Gospel over to our shores.
Neil, as stated above, this does not detract in any way from the Celtic Churches, of which I am also a member spiritually.
I may add, that the Light Tower Church at the Castle is dedicated to Saint Mary Mother of Jesus, not to the queen.
This was also the case long before Henry VIII.
Neil, in order to understand better my point, it's worth considering that the Celtic Christians at first did not send missionaries to the English (Angles, Saxons and Jutes); and when these three tribes settled in Britain, it's also probable that not all Britons were Christians. Those who were had no ecclesiastic communion with the Germanic speaking English and had not started a mission to bring Christianity to them.
Hence King Ethelbert in the 6th century received knowledge of the Faith from his Frankish wife.
However, in the seventh century, the Northumbrian Church was established by way of Celtic missionaries coming from Scotland, who the Northumbrian (English) King Oswald had called over. King Oswald had previously sought refuge on the Monastic Isle of Iona in the Hebrides, where he and his brother had converted to the Christian Faith.
In fact, Saint Aidan, the Irish Abbot of Iona, founded the Monastery of Lindisfarne on a Northumbrian island.
My article: Celtic origins of the English Church, has been used as a source for scholarly research.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Neil
You appear to have the real knowledge on this church at the Castle, does it recognise the Queen as head of church like other church's or not?
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352