Guest 659- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 331
Guest 672- Registered: 3 Jun 2008
- Posts: 2,119
A good title for the thread me thinks, NO CHANGE AT THE TOP.
grass grows by the inches but dies by the feet.
Public welcome to attend. Sums it up for me: take it or leave it, you'll get no encouragement there.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
the challenge is sue;
to have more democracy
no cabinet
go back to a form of committee system
instead of 1 person making decisions
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
Not allowed Keith, law brought in by Labour government late 90s!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Most district councils including Dover still overwhelmingly controlled by officers.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
We've done this to death many times.
It's not that the Council is controlled by officers, the officers are the "professionals" - as in the planning officers, the legal team etc. but policy on a range of subjects is set by the members.
The only department/subject that is completely controlled by an officer, is tourism; there may be one or two others, but that is the one that I know of.
Paul W and his Cabinet set the policies, then some go to Full Council for endorsement, some decisions are made by the Cabinet, then it is policy and the officers put them into practice.
Roger
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
ummm ok roger,but the question begs to be asked,and need i say it needs to be answerd.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Which one Brian ?
Roger
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
who makes the desisions,officers or councilers,transparently of cource.and no spin at all.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
RAY;
As i said at the time to the labour group it was a bad move
and sorry but, if a council wishes to return to a committee system more sio a conservative one, why not?
ROGER;
Hopefully the cabinet puts items to the full council where decisions are made
or have you let a cat out of the bag?
PETER;
There is no doubt we at one on this, whichever dept you look at (rather than pick out a couple) officerrs lead and run the council.
the reason for this is that cllrs are rarely at the offices and the officers are there all day and so therefore fill the gaps.
is it right? no it's not, will it change? no it won't purely because cllrs are part time
snd most have no interest in running the council and if you question your cllr in your ward closely enough have no interest in running the council, nor could they commit the time.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Whichever way we look at it, crap decisions are being made by people who are not as accountable as we would like. It is useless to say, patronisingly, that the Public Are Welcome To Attend. We vote for and pay for people to maintain our local democracy because we don't want to/don't have time/prefer to delegate. Because that is what we have done - we have, as a collective, delegated the responsibility, and we need to have some accountability and some damn good answers when we ask them.
Guest 640- Registered: 21 Apr 2007
- Posts: 7,819
Quite.
Keef it is beginning to be clear that the major decisions recently which have been upsetting local people as seen on here, have not been put to full councils..either DDC or DTC. A select few, in cabinet or committee, are making the decisions.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
my exact point paulb;
the formation of a cabinet format was a bad move.
now i would applaud the conservative group on the council if they were brave enough to make decisions more democratic and remove the cabinet system
im sure there masters in london wouldn't object.
or maybe they approve of one person making the decisions and not over concerned at lack of accountability/democracy
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Paul Watkins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 9 Nov 2011
- Posts: 2,226
All decisions taken are reported & opposition members have the ability to scrutinise them.
It they are scrutinised the sessions are in public & the decision has to be justified to a scrutiny committee. The public can speak if allowed by the chairman of the scrutiny committee. The chairmen are always opposition politicians [unlike KCC].
In my role as Leader I appoint all Cabinet members & Chairmen of Committees [with the exception of Scrutiny].
All Executive powers are vested in the role of Leader. In my case I chose to delegate those decisions to my Cabinet colleagues & those professional staff appointed for the their specialist expertise.
These are legislative requirements put in place by the former government.
A return to the Committee system would further slow down decision making [it is already deadly slow] & start the trend to increase admin staff to service the committee structure, place pressures on professional staff to produce Committee reports, the majority of which would be given the nod & delay action.
It is not a very clever move when staffing numbers are being reduced due to the national financial situation. Indeed the implication of that would be more admin staff for the same budget-result cuts in frontline services to employ staff.
The system & how it works can be found on the Council's website under the heading of the Council's Constitution.
The practice of how it is implemented is also shown.
The website is up to date, describes Agendas, decisions taken, Delegated decisions & how they are acted on.
Hope this is helpful.
If the public have concerns my diary is always available to meet the public as members of this Forum have experienced.
Watty
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
paulw
of course paul as usual you give half a story,
the scrutiny committee's are as you say opposition chairs
but on the scrutiny committee the opposition is outnumbered by conservative members
6 tories to 4 labour on one
so if you truely believe in democracy the opposition would outnumber the administration, but because you want to keep a tight hold you wont allow true scrutiny to take place.
when the votes were even
we saw your own members agreeing with the oppostion and voting that way only to whipped into line once you got hold of them
thus this latest fiasco of a control person(nicer verson)
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Paul Watkins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 9 Nov 2011
- Posts: 2,226
Keith, it has nothing to do with me , I only provide the councillors for the number of places the electoral system delivers.
People vote for political parties the majority party by mathemathical assessment always has more than a minority party. Are you trying to redefine mathematics because it does not suit your arguement.
My group is not whipped, a concept you seem unable to grasp, you having being part of a rigid system which your party ran , you accepted & were part of a Cabinet system i.e. member. Roger has told you that often enough my group are not whipped.
These newly discovered ideals makes me believe your ideals are pliant to the personal circumstances which suit you. If you did not like the system why did you accept it, accept a Cabinet position & promote the ideals you did not believe in.
Watty
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 37 .Hands up who believes that load of cobblers.
Having many friends who are tory members,past and present,at County and District who have openly admitted they are
whipped,why would the leader of Dover District Council deny it, risking that people who have been round the block will not
challenge the ludicrous statement?
If any member of any party is late for the pre-Council meeting the first words one hears is `How are we voting on agenda
No?
At County Hall it is so openly operated by the chief whips when a vote is required.A chief whip will turn to his collegues to
indicate which way to vote and will either do `thumbs up`or `four fingers`for a `for`vote or `thumbes down`for
`against`vote.
When the elecric board shows someone has not followed `instructions`the hunt goes on for the guilty member/s.
The same applies to the District Council.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
reg
well said boyo
he(paulw)feels he can fool people. but no chance.
scrutiny must if believed in be made up of opposition cllrs having the majority
otherwise its a farce
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
That is simply NOT true Reg. not at the District Council.
No Conservative District Councillors are whipped, none whatsoever.
There is "collective responsibility" for the Cabinet as there would be expected to be, but certainly no whipping.
We have a group meeting the evening before the Full Council meeting where we are informed of important developments and we go through the agenda; if there is anything coming up that causes concerns to anyone or something they are not happy with, they can (and often do) discuss it and if they are still not convinced of the need to implement a particular policy, they vote according to how they feel. It's happened to me a few times.
Paul always says, "if you have a problem and can't support it, just let us know".
There are also lots of opportunities where Councillors can ask questions about any issue that they want to ask about and discuss it openly without fear of whipping or bad feeling.
I have no idea what goes on at County Council meetings.
If anyone tells you they are whipped (at District), they are lying.
Roger
