Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
if the buffoons of Westminster can get there act together some thing might happen.
Jan Higgins likes this
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Please explain how interpretation can somehow alter the fact that the laws of this country can only be changed by Parliament. I'm all ears.
Neil - I would disagree with the "relatively easy to rejoin" sentiment. We will never go back in on better terms than we currently have which is just another reason why I fear that subsequent generations will not look kindly on those that will leave them in this mess. Although, of course, the climate change mess will dwarf all others.
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Well, one could argue that some Statutory Instruments (and the like), and case law, do that and don't involve Parliament. However, what Mr Barrington said was "the facts themselves are meaningless, when it is the interpretation that is flawed". For example, and here's where I disagree with Mr Moors about spinning, in future a Brexiteer might say "since we left the EU there have been no recorded dinosaur attacks anywhere in the UK". That is (very likely to be) a fact, but to interpret it as cause and effect would be wrong.
The fact is that, following the Referendum result, Parliament voted to notify the EU that the UK sought to withdraw from the Union; I suggest that that IS cause and effect.
The only thing that surprises me about the tabloid media coverage of what happened next is that I have yet to see the headline 'Michel Barnier ate my hamster'.
(Not my real name.)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
boris Johnson ate my gold fish.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,847
ray hutstone wrote:Please explain how interpretation can somehow alter the fact that the laws of this country can only be changed by Parliament.
I know it's cricket season, but that's an underarmer. I for one wasn't addressing a general claim about changing the law; my comments were specific to the referendum and Briefing Paper 07212.
But while we're on the subject of facts and interpretations, and not to muddy already murky waters too much, it is a
fact that the Supreme Court judgment (in the Miller case) was that a withdrawal Act was required for A50. It is also a
fact that the majority judgment was arrived at through the
interpretation of the relevant legal evidence by the eleven judges. It is also a
fact that there were three dissenters, whose
interpretation was different to that of the other eight. I don't believe that makes the minority three
wrong any more than it makes the majority eight
right; but it does suggest that fact and interpretation do enjoy the kind of dynamic and raunchy marriage that would make a missionary blush.
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
It is indeed the cricket season and at the moment it's going very well. Dare I tempt fate ? 94 for 0 as I write.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
ok here is some good news we beat the aussies,the bad news is Brexit is being banterd around like a bad smell.
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,230
Let me explain a little more about my two key points. The first, on rejoining the EU - I agree that we won't be offered identical terms as we have now, they will almost certainly be worse. My point is that if we leave and then subsequently apply to rejoin, we'll almost certainly immediately meet the minimum qualifying criteria and won't have to join the back of the queue and have a shopping list of requirements (like, say, Turkey). We'd be welcomed back with open arms.
On the spinning point - what I mean here is that you cannot hide certain things. If there is a queue of lorries backing up to Maidstone from Dover, you can't hide that. If we don't have enough nurses and the NHS waiting list grows, you can't hide that. If there is a house price crash, yes, you could spin that as being good for first time buyers....but the Tories wouldn't be amused as their relative wealth will have fallen. Equally, rising interest rates because of a falling pound, Black Wednesday style, can't be hidden.
But, if I put my faith in Boris Johnson and Charlie Elphicke, I am sure none of this will happen anyway.....
Button likes this
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
Neil Moors wrote: If there is a house price crash, yes, you could spin that as being good for first time buyers....but the Tories wouldn't be amused as their relative wealth will have fallen. Equally, rising interest rates because of a falling pound, Black Wednesday style, can't be hidden.
Your assumption being that only Tories own their houses, I know several affluent staunch Labour supporters who own their own homes plus rental property.
Spin is simply waffle that all political parties can not live without, one of the reasons the majority of sensible people no longer trust any of them.
Pablo likes this
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Charlie tweets: "Proud to welcome @BorisJohnson to Dover today [11 July] - to show Dover stands ready." Hm, I think the word we're looking for here is 'braced'.
(Not my real name.)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
more like dred button.
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Junior minister's role in Boris's new government on its way perhaps?
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Are you sitting comfortably? Then Charlie will begin:
It's called 'The Ghost of Project Fear is back again, but Britain stands ready for Brexit'
"Theresa May never believed that the United Kingdom could flourish outside the EU. In fact, the entire political establishment has spent almost all of its energy over the last three years demeaning the views of the millions of people who voted to Leave in the EU referendum, and attempting to panic voters into changing their minds. And they’re still at it.
The Ghost of Project Fear is back again, this time in the form of Philip Rycroft, the former Permanent Secretary at the Department for Exiting the European Union. He’s the latest merchant of doom who wants to tell us all how distasteful he finds the views of ordinary voters to be.
17.4 million people voted to leave in 2016 – including two thirds of my constituents in Dover and Deal. Leaving the EU was an option on the ballot paper that attracted more votes than any politician or other referendum option in our history.
The British people voted in unprecedented numbers because they believed in better: a Britain where we can build a land of opportunity and a nation with the freedoms and independence that the vast majority of countries around the world enjoy. Outside the EU we will be able to control our borders, our laws and money and set our own trade policy.
Voters knew leaving the EU would not be easy and that there would be bumps in the roads. Some of those bumps might even be pretty jarring. But “fraught” with risk is over the top. Voters have heard the Project Fear fiddle played before – and they didn’t like the tune.
Day-by-day the Project Fear warnings have become ever more alarmist. We were told there would be border chaos, food and medicine shortages, price hikes, states of emergency, catastrophe, planes falling out of the sky, civil unrest – even an end to peace in Northern Ireland.
We’ve been warned of gridlock on the roads to the Channel Ports, that our pets will die in quarantine, that the Calais Jungle would be moved to Dover and that our water will become poisonous. We were even warned of an economic calamity in which millions would lose their jobs and house prices would collapse. Despite all of this, the people voted to Leave and it turns out they were absolutely right to do so.
People’s salaries have been increasing at the fastest rate in almost a decade, employment is at record levels and we’re still growing steadily as an economy. President Trump has promised us a “very powerful” trade deal and Obama’s “back of the queue” rhetoric has turned out to be the shallow nonsense voters predicted. Never has our future looked so bright.
Of course we have all long known that Brexit would present a challenge at the Dover frontline. There are around 60 sailings to the port of Dover from Dunkirk and Calais every day. But the cross-Channel trading route is a huge success story: more than £120 billion of trade moves through Dover’s docks every year and when you add Eurotunnel into the mix, the Channel Ports account for about a third of the UK’s trade in goods. Eurostar has, of course, pledged to maintain its service, saying that, “we plan and expect to maintain services on the existing basis and timetable following Brexit.”
Contrary to the increasingly desperate warnings, it is in everyone’s interests – that of the French as well as ours – that traffic continues to flow, particularly as they sell us £95 billion more goods than we sell to them. Small wonder that Xavier Bertrand, the boss of the Calais region, says they have no intention of holding things up at Calais. And what are the chances President Macron will play politics with jobs and livelihoods on both sides of the English Channel? Especially after he has done that in France and emerged with riots and a political bloody nose. He is now more likely now to focus on French jobs than Brussels clap lines.
If people like Philip Rycroft put as much effort into being ready as they put into trying to frighten us, we would be in an even better position. That’s why they should change tack now. They should spend all remaining time between now and 31st October making sure we are fully ready for any challenge that may be thrown at us.
At the Dover front line we have been working on preparations for disruption. A plan has been put to the Department for Transport to ensure the town of Dover is free of gridlock and that both of Kent’s motorways can be kept open and free-flowing. It is that kind of forward thinking that is needed from across Government. They must focus on being ready for business on 1st November.
Hope – not fear – fuelled that magnificent result in 2016 and we need an optimistic visionary in No. 10 who understands that and who will ensure that Project Fear and all its messengers are dealt with properly.
Right now, our country has an unprecedented opportunity to grasp the huge opportunities Brexit presents as well as to put the damaging paralysis behind us.
The British people stood ready in 2016 to make the call for our nation’s independent future. Let’s make sure that Parliament is able to match the political courage of the people. We must use all our energies to deliver for the people and match their unparallelled ambitions for this great nation of ours.
Britain stands ready for Brexit and we need a visionary leader to take us over the line. We really can triumph outside the EU, we can unite after we’re out and then bring the country and the Conservative Party together to take the fight to Jeremy Corbyn."
© BrexitCentral
I don't know what it is about the road to Damascus, but St Paul was never the same afterwards either and ended up posting stuff every 5 minutes too.
ray hutstone likes this
(Not my real name.)
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Please tell me you wrote this yourself, Button, or at least borrowed it from another satirical source perhaps?
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Very tempted to say it's a Monty Python sketch, but sadly it came from
https://brexitcentral.com/the-ghost-of-project-fear-is-back-again-but-britain-stands-ready-for-brexit/
Thank you for the compliments!
(Not my real name.)
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,230
Hi Jan, not my assumption at all that only Tory voters own their own property (you are quite right). Rather, it was demographics - that Tory voters are typically older and are therefore more likely to have had the opportunity to buy their property when it was more affordable. Again - that's a generalism and of course won't cover everyone.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
ray hutstone wrote:Junior minister's role in Boris's new government on its way perhaps?
Or even not so Junior maybe something more important, with Boris in the driving seat anything is possible.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Ambassador to the French or whoever, or Raphael to the Regions.
(Not my real name.)
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
bob the builder evan.
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,681
Seriously, other than trade deals and maybe some state support for failing industries there has been nothing in the last few missives from Charlie etc that our politicians couldn't have done and delivered if they had really wanted to as none of it is against EU rules; but of course that flies in the face of the fantasy narrative they have built around nebulous phrases like "taking back control".
ray hutstone likes this
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi