Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
Brian Dixon wrote:ray, we will find out by September, I can vision of a compleat break down of parliament.
Brian it has already completely broken down. Ignoring and using whatever delay tactics they can think of to ignore the public's wishes is a dangerous thing to do.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,232
I think that Boris is relying on Parliament to stop him leaving without a deal on 31 October. He'll then throw his hands up in the air in faux rage and say he tried his best. It'll be interesting to watch.
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ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Jan Higgins wrote:Brian it has already completely broken down. Ignoring and using whatever delay tactics they can think of to ignore the public's wishes is a dangerous thing to do.
The public's wishes 3 years ago may not be the public's wishes now. People cannot be denied the simple right to change their minds in the face of what amounts to a right wing coup. That Johnson and co refuse to dismiss the idea of proroguing parliament is disgraceful. Why put up with the inconvenience of parliament, eh?
This cant about a single twisted version interpretation of democracy is poisonous.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,849
Labour's prolonged, painful and pitiful equivocation on the Party's position on the EU is down to Corbyn's failure to construct and popularise an argument for a Left alternative for the UK outside the EU. It's not as though he hasn't had enough time; he's been a eurosceptic all his political life. But there are two reasons why he hasn't done so: first, he's hamstrung by the Remain sentiments of the new urban metropolitan 'support' that brought him the Leadership; second, and more importantly, he doesn't have the historical, philosophical, political, rhetorical and oratorical skills to do it. As a result he's allowed the Right to claim Brexit as its own, and as good as said 'thanks for the memory' to Labour-supporting Leave voters, who'll either put their future crosses in some nutter's box or disenfranchise themselves in despair.
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'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
Posts 4168 & 4169:
"The public's wishes 3 years ago may not be the public's wishes now." I guess that's true, since how else would the party of government change. The snag is, how would a putative 2nd Referendum, that included a Remain option, be somehow more "legitimate" and "this time for real" than the first, and pre-empt a 3rd? No-one I know has changed their mind, although I don't know any non-voters (who would now vote).
"...failure to construct and popularise an argument for a Left alternative for the UK outside the EU." Quite; I would add 'and explain'. I don't mean to suggest that people were not sufficiently well-informed to give a reasoned vote in the 2016 Referendum, but to my mind there is still a lot of unhelpful tabloid inexactitude around and Labour's hitherto Customs Union policy is just more of the same. Would Starmer please explain the advantages of a CU over an FTA, because I'm surely not seeing them.
(Not my real name.)
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
The media and so many MPs are so anti Brexit that they simply do not have the vision or common sense to understand that the population are no longer the thick uneducated mass of years ago who followed whatever we were told.
The EU does not have a god given right to dictate how we British think and behave, we are and I hope will always be an independent and free nation but not at all insular when it comes to world affairs.
We can think for ourselves, we are able to have the vision to see and understand that there is a whole world out there that we can trade and be friends with.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
Button wrote:
No-one I know has changed their mind.
Oops - other than Mr Elphicke, obviously.
(Not my real name.)
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
The media are so anti Brexit? What media would that be - the Mail, Express, Sun maybe even the BBC?
As for the MPs, well it may have escaped people's attention but we live in a parliamentary democracy. The clue is in the name. To suggest that the EU think they have a 'god given right' to dictate how we think and behave is about the most ridiculous accusation I've ever heard in this hideous row. Please explain why you think this is the case. I'd love to hear the reasons.
Johnston, however, does seem to believe that he has a right (whether God given or not) to bypass the will of parliament. If that's your version of democracy then please count me out.
It's very hard for some people to understand that, in an issue as complex as this, a 52% majority of a 72% turnout does not represent an infallible, set in stone forever indication of the will of the people.
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
ray hutstone wrote:It's very hard for some people to understand that, in an issue as complex as this, a 52% majority of a 72% turnout does not represent an infallible, set in stone forever indication of the will of the people.
You're right there - cos I'm one of them (and don't see it as a complex issue). Mind you, I'm not against another Referendum on EU membership, just so long as it's after the result of the last one has been implemented, is preferably a couple of decades away, and voting is mandatory.
(Not my real name.)
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,849
ray hutstone wrote:As for the MPs, well it may have escaped people's attention but we live in a parliamentary democracy. The clue is in the name.
Well, yes the UK is a parliamentary democracy (and I for one sure wish it wasn't), but the decision was made by referendum. It's then a matter for the executive simply to implement it, and not for parliament to put spanners in the works. The fact that both have been faffing about for the last 3 years pretending to leave while desiring to remain is no fault of the 52% (and I wasn't one of them, by the way). The fact that these two democratic options live happily together in Switzerland shows just how far behind them we are in democratic sophistication.
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'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Weird Granny Slater wrote:Well, yes the UK is a parliamentary democracy (and I for one sure wish it wasn't), but the decision was made by referendum. It's then a matter for the executive simply to implement it, and not for parliament to put spanners in the works.
Sorry WGS but you are wrong. I'm sure we've been through this loop in previous threads. Whether you like it or not, that the 2016 referendum took place required in itself a new act of parliament. That act was only passed by our parliament on the basis that it was an advisory referendum.
Nobody has ever argued that the act would have met with majority support had it been on the basis of making the result a legal requirement to be enacted.
It therefore follows that it's not "a matter for the executive simply to implement it" as you so glibly put it. This was further re-enforced by the Gina Miller case which made it unambiguously clear that any act requiring the UK to leave the EU must be approved by parliamentary democracy. You may be against that principle but it remains the basis of our government and I for one sincerely hope it never changes. Only parliament can make changes in UK law. Ironic, isn't it, that so much of this needless act of self mutilation was based upon the desire to take back control.
We can all hurl as much abuse at our parliamentarians as we like but the fact remains that they are under no obligation whatsoever to vote in proscribed way. Even the whip system cannot change that in the last analysis.
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
I stand corrected and wish to emend my last post to read '...just so long as it's after implementation of the Withdrawal Agreement agreed between the UK and EU in pursuance of Article 50(2) following the advice given by the UK electorate that the former should leave the latter...'
On reflection, it's a pity that the Referendum question couldn't have been 'shall' we leave and not 'should' we leave. But I still think that "faffing about" sums up Westminster.
(Not my real name.)
Bob Whysman- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 1,919
With over 4000 postings on the Brexit thread so far most of the postings predict doom and gloom when, or if, we leave the EU.
It would make more interesting reading perhaps and a chance to raise our chins off the floor if we were able to extol the benefits of staying in the EU.
A discussion on how this could pan out for future generations would generate a more positive attitude and perhaps lower blood pressures too!
The Common Market that was, is now the European Union and will be ?????? In the future.
It’s a different world from the one that most of us knew and grew up in; I wonder what the youngsters wish for their future?
Whatever the outcome, it is them that will have to live with it for years to come.
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Do nothing and nothing happens.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the trouble is quite clear, Brexit started in 2016 at a full blown gallop, things have now slowed to a snails pace.3 and a bit years and we are still in the starting stalls. get over it you lot.
Weird Granny Slater- Location: Dover
- Registered: 7 Jun 2017
- Posts: 2,849
ray hutstone wrote:I'm sure we've been through this loop in previous threads.
Indeed. My view in #3,009 is unchanged. (And don't forget your #2,968, my #2,969 and your #2,970!)
But see, e.g., how Chris Hanretty trumps AC Grayling's playing of the Briefing Paper 07212 card:
https://medium.com/@chrishanretty/thisisnotagerrymander-851f7028aa22
Of course, he could be wrong too!
'Pass the cow dung, my dropsy's killing me' - Heraclitus
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
I can only keep reiterating the facts.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
the fact is, Brexit is now dead in the water, becalmed evan.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,658
The trouble with facts is that like opinion polls they can be interpreted or used in different ways.
Fact, it is cloudy this morning. I am happy because it should not be so hot, others will be disappointed because they want to sunbathe.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,206
ray hutstone wrote:I can only keep reiterating the facts.
As WGS and Jan point out the facts themselves are meaningless, when it is the interpretation that is flawed.
Arte et Marte
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,232
Leaving, even without a deal, at least gets this whole sorry mess out of our system. If it works, great. If it doesn't, it should be relatively easy enough to rejoin. That's the great thing - it can't be spun - it'll either work or it wont.
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