ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
#2094 Ah yes. The distant but sunlit uplands argument much favoured by Rees-Mogg and Johnson but derided by the majority of those with an objective understanding of economics and geopolitics. The growth nations who will rush to buy our goods in sufficient numbers to compensate for the damage done through EU withdrawal. And demand nothing in return, to boot!
And the there's our commonwealth friends. How I look forward to all those container ships full of boxed sets of The Sullivans going one way and Fortnum and Masons Christmas hampers going the other.
The reality is, of course, that the penny is finally beginning to drop.
How wonderful. I'm surprised you side with this guff, Your Grace, being (as it would appear) a man of socialist leanings. Maybe the Corbyn view that EU membership stifles the socialist state might be more persuasive.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
17.2 million voted for this cock up.
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Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,230
17,199,999 of them just wanted to vent their anger about immigration - because Government had been successful in convincing them that immigration, rather than absolutely anything else, was the cause of absolutely everything they didn't like. That's what makes this so frustrating.
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John Buckley- Registered: 6 Oct 2013
- Posts: 615
Brian Dixon wrote:17.2 million voted for this cock up.
I don’t think that’s really what they voted for Brian. They voted to LEAVE the EU, as simple as that, not half in and half out, a situation which is purely down to the stupidity of the government, not the voters.
We all knew that the initial stages of leaving would not be easy and whilst the economy is obviously an important and major factor it’s not the be all and end all of leaving. We voted to run our own country, control our boarders, make and follow our own laws, stop paying them vast sums of money and not in any way be obligated to the EU.
The remit was quite straightforward, but when you have a leader who does not believe in what she had to do then you get this mish mash of nothingness that we have now.
It’s the government that’s cocked up, not the voters!
Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,681
NM if only it really were that simple but there were so many reasons cited for voting leave.
Those ranged from wanting to give Cameron & the EU a scare, to fishing rights, to anger at the CAP, to myths about the NHS, to myths about self determination & sovereignty in a globally connected world. to immigration and more.
Sadly none of this helps with fixing the unmitigated omnishambles that is the negotiations to date
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"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Disagree with you there Neil but moving on I cannot see anything but a second vote happening although "officially" neither of the main parties want it. Whatever we put forward to Brussels will upset MPs so much easier to put the onus on the people so that if things go badly wrong whoever is in charge can say "you told me to do it".
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,230
Agree entirely, Howard. A second vote, at the very least, provides cover for MPs. They could turn around and say "well, it's what you asked for..." when the whole thing turns out to be a shambles.
Indeed - the blame game, post Brexit, is going to be something to behold.
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ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
There's no other way out of this mess. Greening is not just an "embittered politican", she's a pragmatist with the interests of the country at heart. It's such a pity that the ultras cannot find it within themselves to give ground. Did democracy really begin in June 2016 or did it die? What utter nonsense. If you believe in it, you will not be so scared of another referendum which gives the populace a properly informed choice to make with (hopefully) the facts rather than fake news at their disposal. This sort of cant will do this country and our children and grandchildren so much harm.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Courtesy of the Times.
How likely is a second Brexit referendum?
The chances of a second referendum on Britain’s membership of the European Union has become more likely since Theresa May published her Chequers negotiating plan. But it is still probably less than a 50/50 chance. Before the white paper and the cabinet resignations that followed the prime minister had largely managed to keep both sides of her warring party onboard with her negotiating strategy. That has changed and Mrs May is in the unenviable position of having to fight on three fronts: against the Brexiteers for whom her plan is a sell out; against the hardcore Tory Remainers for whom her plan does not go far enough; and against Brussels that still has deep reservations about what she is asking for. On top of this Labour will almost certainly vote against whatever deal she comes back with — meaning she has almost no chance of getting it through parliament.
In those circumstances putting the Brexit issue back to the people could be the only option available to her.
It was this political reality that the former education secretary Justine Greening acknowledged when she told The Times: “The only solution is to take the final Brexit decision out of the hands of deadlocked politicians, away from the backroom deals, and give it back to the people.”
Other than Justine Greening who supports a second referendum?
The idea is strongly backed by Remainers who believe it is the only plausible and legitimate way of reversing Brexit. The pro-EU group Open Britain has rebranded itself as the People’s Vote to push for a second referendum. This group is supported by several dozen, mainly Labour, SNP and Lib Dem MPs. At the moment there is no call among Brexiteers for a second vote — although this could change if they sense that the parliamentary arithmetic is against them.
If there was a second referendum what would the question be?
That in itself is a hard question to answer. Ms Greening has suggested that the second referendum should not be a “divisive, binary choice”, proposing instead that voters are presented with three choices: the prime minister’s negotiated deal; staying in the EU; or a clean break. The voting system should involve first and second preference votes, she added. But while this may sound logical it is fraught with difficulties. On the one hand it presupposes that Mrs May will be able to negotiate a deal with Brussels. Brexiteers argue that the EU will offer a bad deal in the hope of making Britain stay inside the bloc if they know it will be put to a vote.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
yeah could do with another one with a bit more clarity and no spin lies.
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Guest 1881- Registered: 16 Oct 2016
- Posts: 1,071
ray hutstone wrote:#2094 How wonderful. I'm surprised you side with this guff, Your Grace, being (as it would appear) a man of socialist leanings. Maybe the Corbyn view that EU membership stifles the socialist state might be more persuasive.
When you are a believer in the democratic process it goes against the grain if you have a vote to enter the Common Market and end up with an EU that was never on the table in the first place. A bit like getting rid of a 'disappointing' MP at the ballot box for them to get a peerage and represent the nation in a cabinet position without fear of the people.
We need politicians to understand that we appoint and dismiss them and that they are not untouchable. The EU is untouchable - do you believe that can respond favourably to Tony Benn's five question test?
“What power have you got?”
“Where did you get it from?”
“In whose interests do you use it?”
“To whom are you accountable?”
“How do we get rid of you?”Reginald Barrington, Jan Higgins and John Buckley like this
Just because you don't take an interest in politics doesn't mean that politics won't take an interest in you. PERICLES.
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
You've deftly ignored the economic arguments, Your Grace, and the potential for enormous damage to this country. As for Tony Benn's 5 questions, I hope you will be prepared to ask them of the Brexiteers in 5 years time if the worst comes to the worst.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Yet more evidence that us and the Nord pas de Calais are forgotten in terms of what happens after we leave.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/17/dover-calais-facing-economic-catastrophe-due-to-brexitButton- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,903
Ray, I suspect you're missing The Bishop's point (Mr Buckley's too); yes there will be consequences from the democratic vote to leave the EU and these may well include economic ones, but their point is that the UK will have the freedom to make of life what it will.
If it's any consolation, I recall that Pratchett said "Freedom may be mankind’s natural state, but so is sitting in a tree eating your dinner while it is still wriggling."
(Not my real name.)
Neil Moors- Registered: 3 Feb 2016
- Posts: 1,230
This is the territory will now appear to be entering - an acceptance that post Brexit Britain will suffer, but that suffering will be worth it to "take back control".
What is less clear is where that suffering will fall....
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
I wasn't trying to be obtuse, Button. I do understand the arguments on both sides. However, the longer this self-inflicted wound is allowed to fester, the worse it becomes for all of us. Howard's link above is very accurate as regards the local impacts.
Personally, I value the freedoms which EU membership has given me. There has always been a hidden agenda behind Brexit. I'd simply prefer to retain what we now have than run the risk of being subject to a right wing coup. Look at last night's events in the Commons or Trump's latest antics vis-a-vis Putin.
I fear the worst.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
John Redwood on running complex supply chains, he seems to have little understanding of the practicalities.
"Yesterday’s debate was dominated by people who have never run complex supply chains who were unwilling to accept they work fine with non EU as well as with EU parts. We needed to explain all over again how TIR, Authorised Economic Operators, the WTO Facilitation Agreement, electronic manifests and calculations and checking loads away from the border currently operate to speed goods across borders. The electronic paperwork is detailed and sometime complicated, but it is also needed by the customer and required for product audit purposes. If you supply a part into the supply chain for a complex and safety crucial product like a plane or truck, you do need to supply the customer with very detailed information about where it came from, when and how it was made, and how it has been tested. Your computer can share the parts of this information that is needed with the Customs, Vat, Excise and other authorities electronically."
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
John Redwood clearly has a different and more comprehensive experience than I do, despite my 40 years in the cross-channel business as an I.T. professional. Unless there is a significant change of events, I fear for Dover's well-being in the coming years.
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Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
My point Ray is not about the technology of the future but the fact that businesses operate on parts being available at 1 or 2 days notice. Anything bought outside the EU except from the odd former Soviet Union country would come from another continent taking 2 to 3 weeks so clearing the goods in 5 minutes is irrelevant. Considering Redwood comes from Dover he really should know that.
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