Guest 1551- Registered: 12 Jul 2015
- Posts: 5
Our political system is broken and despite their promises, successive governments have proven themselves both unwilling and unable to provide the reform we need. Our government is driving a counter productive program of austerity against our young people, the poor, disabled and those who are least able to defend themselves, while handing out tax breaks to the rich and multi national corporations. In 2014, an estimated £122billion in tax revenue went unpaid due to tax avoidance, evasion and simple non payment, while our public secret services are being annihilated.
In response, a number of people who are concerned about how our political system neither serves nor meets the needs of the vast majority of people, are setting up a group. The purpose of the group is to provide a forum where those who share these concerns can come together to desicuss, debate, design and build a better, fairer and more democratic political system that will work for everyone.
Meetings will happen online and it is hoped that the first meeting will take place during the last week in July. Any UK resident who wants to be a part of building something better can join the group by sending an email to
redesigndemocracy@yahoo.co.uk to be added to the list of invitees.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
It's not democracy that is flawed, but what causes society to be as it is. Socialists can't manage money and Conservatives have to balance the needs of businesses, whilst providing a safety-net for those less fortunate, or who have fallen through the net and find themselves on hard-times.
It's no good bashing successful businesses or entrepreneurs with higher taxes as they produce the wealth and jobs for people. Many business have wages/salaries as their most expensive costs, which is a necessary cost to any business, but there are always pressures on reducing those costs.
Low paid are usually (not always of course) because many have either no, or little education, qualifications or skills. There are exceptions of course, but in the majority of cases, the teenage years will be the most important years of anyone's life as it will determine how (and where) they spend the rest of their lives.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
The main point being that approx £122 billion that should have been paid in tax hasn't been necessitating the swingeing cuts to public services hitting the poorest in our society.
Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
Sorry Roger but our democratic system is seriously flawed, while you are right about hammering businesses/entrepreneurs etc. with higher taxes, ensuring they all pay a fair rate would be a start (Amazon, Starbucks, google etc etc).
Do we blame the low paid for the lack or level of education? or do we blame an education system that has failed them.
12 billion in welfare cuts while an estimated 122 billion lost in tax revenues, a bedroom tax on people who can't downsize because there are no smaller properties for them to move into(I'm one of them).
Yes this conservative government is hitting the poorest in our society, I voted for them but only because I wanted an MP in this town that would stand up for us in parliament.
The current status quo cannot continue unabated, how long can we continue prodding the dog before it bites us?
Good luck to the
redesigndemocracy@yahoo.co.uk group I have signed up so that I can have a voice in designing our democracy, it will probably come to nothing but I'll have more chance to influence than in the current flawed system we laughingly call democracy.
Arte et Marte
Guest 1551- Registered: 12 Jul 2015
- Posts: 5
This article has been posted in a number of forums and I just wanted to say what a refreshing change it is to see people putting their point of view across without insulting and attacking the point of view of others.
Roger, I don't agree with everything you have said, but your point about teenagers is such an important one. This group will not be about apportioning blame, nor is it about attacking businesses as they are an essential part of British society. It will people about citizens coming together to debate and build something that works for everyone.
Howard, very valid point. We are well aware that it may not be possible to collect that £122billion ion unpaid tax revenue, but believe more of a concerted effort could and should be made.
Reginald, I agree with almost everything you say except "it will probably come to nothing". My friends and I are committed to forming and facilitating this group because something has to be done and at the moment, there does not appear to be an alternative and we believe passionately, in the power of people coming together to work towards a common goal. Of course there will be hiccups and differences of opinion, that is the beauty of being non exclusive in the group membership. On the other hand, maybe you are right and it will all fall apart, but at least we will have tried.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Going off at a slight tangent we know that only two of our parties can form a government and each knows that they only need just over a third of the vote or a quarter of those registered to vote to rule. For evermore the majority have no representation at Westminster. A form of Proportional representation I think is the answer, the only drawback being that we can select out own MP. When coalitions are formed compromises have to be made to keep as many people happy as possible. A clear example is right now we have Dave and George gleefully attacked to working poor and disabled which they couldn't do in the last Parliament. No system is perfect but people have to believe that their vote means something. Currently UKIP voters are up in arms as they have only 1 MP when if their had been PR they would have around 80.
Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,257
Peoplepower I hope I am wrong and something significant comes about from this.
Arte et Marte
Guest 1551- Registered: 12 Jul 2015
- Posts: 5
Howard, we don't have to stick with the political system we have at the moment. Think outside the box and think bigger. Speaking personally rather than on behalf of the group I am forming, I'd like to see less power centralised at Westminster and more devolution to local constituencies. Local councils could be disbanded in favour of local constituency committees made up of local people and elected by their constituents. MP's could be held accountable to their constituents via the local constituency council, where all decisions would be made. Any constituent should be able to attend and vote at a meeting of the constituency council. New laws and amendments to old ones could be drawn up and voted on by parliament, but not become law until approved by the constituency councils. The balance of power would be held by constituents, who would have the power to sack any of their politicians.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
There are many other aspects to a better democracy but I'm afraid I will not debate them with people who do not disclose their identity.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,876
:
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Peter beat me to it, would like to go into this in more depth with a human.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
its all down to this,and not human either.
Guest 1551- Registered: 12 Jul 2015
- Posts: 5
Peter, Jan, Howard, that is a very fair point. Anyone know if it is possible to change my screen name?
Chris- Forum Admin
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Oct 2009
- Posts: 357
PeoplePower wrote:Peter, Jan, Howard, that is a very fair point. Anyone know if it is possible to change my screen name?
If you send me a message I can update it for you -
info@dover.uk.com.
Chris
Guest 1555- Registered: 23 Jul 2015
- Posts: 29
I am working on an essay on why we need a central government at all. Most people do not know their MPs. Especially if they do not live in the place they are supposed to represent. Why can't the County Councils run Britain with people voted into office who actually live in the locality. Working together they could come up with something where there is an elected Senator to each County who can sit in the Commons, and an elected Lord Mayor who can sit in the House of Lords, instead of the fiasco we have now. In the fifties there were forty-two counties in England. Now there are Ninety-two with Thirty-three in Scotland, Thirteen in Wales, and Six or Seven in Northern Ireland. Each with a County Council running the Counties quite well. With nearly every town with its local council helping them.
There is far too much money going into central government, and not enough coming back. The people of the Counties know their councillors well, and most have their people at heart. Surely, we can come up with a better system of elected government than we have now. I cannot put my trust in people who are already well-off before they take office. Their real interest cannot be with those who work hard for a living...there are too many temptations elsewhere. The Dispatches program opened that can of worms when two ex-ministers were charging lobbyists for their services, talking about fees of between £3000 to £5000 for a mornings work. Not many know about the all-party lobbying groups either. I believe Britain and Europe are being grossly over Governed to the tune of billions of pounds wasted on overcharging of expenses, as usual paid for by the taxpayer, who is their employer. Things will not change until the people wake up. Andy Stucken is right. The people of Britain seem to lack a backbone when it comes to voting. If Mr Corben gets in as Leader of the Labour party, maybe there will be a chance for the working man. He did not need the cruel criticism of Tony Blair the other day on national TV as Blair's Labour government was no different to the Conservative Party, and he seemed to do alright out of it...The people need someone like Corben, he is for the working man and Britain.
Blair's unjust criticism of Corben showed just how much he cared about the working man. He is out of politics now and making good money elsewhere, he should keep his mouth shut. With Blair and Brown you got the same whoever you voted for, Labour or the Conservatives. If you voted for the Liberals or other parties all you did was split the vote in favour of the top two parties. It is not a democratic system when the votes, which go to the minor parties are completely wasted...like in the last General Election and the Independent vote...
We do not need Eight-hundred non-elected Lords and Ladies either. As businesses are trimming their staff, so too, do we need to trim out politicians down to a manageable size. The House of Lords has become nothing more than a retirement home for elderly senior politicians who want a more lucrative retirement package, one which keeps their lobbing windows open. The only way to stop this insult to democracy is to change to a better and fairer system of government for the people by the people, before those growing up think what we have now is the norm. I believe the County Council system or one like it will work for Britain, because the people know exactly who they are voting for. Their voted in representative will be living in their community and have an interest in their community, also for a broader Britain...It will also cut the number of useless politicians down to size.
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. I went to St Mary's School in Queen Steet Dover, which no longer exists. I do not like the changes being done to the Dover seafront by people who do not really have the town's people at heart. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the prince of Wales Pier and had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs, which are now filled in with concrete.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour board is contemplating. If the Yacht Marina is moved out of the inner harbour and into the bay it will become just another rubbish dump. It is obvious that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years on the small boats before I retired in 2003 as a survey and environmental cox'n. The last ten yearssurveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand...and a lot of silt moving out there. If they fill the Granville Docks in, where I used to help unload fruit boats in the good old days. It will just become another huge lorry park in the future.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse by the swarms of immigrants coming over from France and further afield. With fewer customs, once the immigrants twig there is another way in they will take it. I have been to sea in three Merchant Navies since 1959 and have always believed Britain, being an island should have had a container fleet Merchant Navy manned by british sailors, the best in the world, trading with its Commonwealth. The Greek fiasco has proved the politicians cannot be trusted,nor the big Banks, to have any intrest in the working people of Britain, only in themselves... Who owns the town, is it business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board, or is there a hidden agenda. What is the plan for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier. QUESTIONS have to be asked and honest ANSWERS given. Already European countries have huge interests in our utilities and other, used to be publicily owned, businesses. We may as well not had a war, not when we are being slowly taken over by foreign interests. Britain was once a country to be proud of and brave people defended its honour and died for it. I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers, and those Dover people whomust have lost their lives there. Just what did my father and those brave people fight for? I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties, who had actually been in the water a number of times after being torpedoed. Over fifty thousand seamen died and thousands of our Navy, Airmen, and Army died for our freedom. Will the young remember them when those left are gone. I no longer free free any more, only a sense of foreboding for our younger generation.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
I don't think Blair deserves the criticism he gets from within his old party, 3 election wins says it all and many of the holier than thou MP's on the left of the party would never have got elected without him. His Government brought in the minimum wage, working tax credits, winter heating allowance and free bus travel for the over 60's and free t.v. licences for the over 75s. Big investment in the NHS that resulted in shorter waiting lists. In areas where the waiting was still too long patients were sent to private hospitals for treatment. In a world where Corbyn and his union backers rule that would be seen as sacrilege. There lurks within the party many that hanker for long term opposition so that they can be true to their "principles".
Guest 1561- Registered: 5 Aug 2015
- Posts: 1
PeoplePower wrote:Our political system is broken and despite their promises, successive governments have proven themselves both unwilling and unable to provide the reform we need. Our government is driving a counter productive program of austerity against our young people, the poor, disabled and those who are least able to defend themselves, while handing out tax breaks to the rich and multi national corporations. In 2014, an estimated £122billion in tax revenue went unpaid due to tax avoidance, evasion and simple non payment, while our public secret services are being annihilated.
In response, a number of people who are concerned about how our political system neither serves nor meets the needs of the vast majority of people, are setting up a group. The purpose of the group is to provide a forum where those who share these concerns can come together to desicuss, debate, design and build a better, fairer and more democratic political system that will work for everyone.
Meetings will happen online and it is hoped that the first meeting will take place during the last week in July. Any UK resident who wants to be a part of building something better can join the group by sending an email to
redesigndemocracy@yahoo.co.uk to be added to the list of invitees.
Truly speaking PeoplePower, the political system is broken and also there promises are fake. Best of luck for the
redesigndemocracy@yahoo.co.uk group I have just signed up so that I can contribute something to designing our democracy.
www.bricplusnews.comGuest 1555- Registered: 23 Jul 2015
- Posts: 29
You and I disagree on Tony Blair's New Labour, Howard. Unions were set up in the first place to protect the working people from being used as cheap labour by unscrupulous employers. It is not Corbyn's fault militant idiots took over. It was up to the union members to stop that and yet, not enough of them voted for Corbyn in the leadership election. All most working people wanted was a fair chance at decent wages. I notice in the Times there are enough Shadow ministers who say they will not work with him...who needs them. All it takes is a strong Prime Minister to appoint people he or she could trust to do a good job. We went to war in Iraq under Tony Blair, who I think is nearer to a right-wing democracy than a left-wing one, and the Conservatives than he would want us to believe...I hope he can take the criticism he so blatantly gives out. Britain needs a party in opposition that represents the working people and the young who are just starting out in life. After all our politics should be based on, power to the people not just the few. All Blair gave to Britain was peanuts. I believe he had one eye on the grey vote...About 11,000,000 of us. It fooled me but not again. It makes me think you are either a Blairite or firing enough bullets on controversial issues to keep this blog going as a healthy forum for debate, which is commendable... Are You?
There is a lot of mud being slung at Jeremy Corbyn by people who do not know the meaning of honour. Some of them unelected Lords, who are doing very well thank-you, £300 a day and found for signing a book and not even elected by the people. Lords almost 800 strong and people the taxpayer does not need. Especially so when appointed by politics and not our Queen. The head of a Monarchy the working people love. The Lords made up of mostly Ex-politicians and their big business backers, which has become too powerful for its own good. There are Super-rich people who really care about Britain. I am waiting to see who will back Jeremy Corbyn and help build the Britain we once knew...I wish I were a Billionaire...Alas I am only a poor pensioner, but a happy one if I can keep the politicians honest.
Give Jeremy Corbyn a chance to prove himself. I do not see him criticising any of his opponents. As to his being accused of being in bed with terrorists. I believe the terrorists his critic is referring to are those who are fighting for a Palestine state against a known nuclear power Israel who has far-spread tentacles into the world of banking, business, America, and other country's Politics. Israel is a State that is acquiring land that does not belong to them, and in the meantime, destroying the infrastructure of a country that only wants to survive...and that without even a whisper of protest from outside Governments. Most of the honour in this world of ours is at the bottom and not at the top. We should be fighting Isis not ourselves.
Britain needs to change the voting system in this country to a preferential system where not one vote cast is wasted... Secondary parties can give their votes to one of the top two parties closest to their mandates. Corbyn has similar policies to the Greens, and to Ukip. All I believe for a farer Britain for all, and not for globalisation. Globalisation where most of our National assets are being sold off to the highest bidder, mostly foreign...Britain is becoming the toy of those who can see an opportunity of buying cheap and selling dear. It is a country ruled by greedy millionaires and not by the Monarchy. Two banks, which the taxpayer bailed out, are being sold to who, I wonder. What else is in the wind? Our Prime Minister seems to be on a continual world tour, paid for by the taxpayer. It is a great pity more working people are not interested in politics, or in the last referendum on the vote. All it did was show their ignorance...IT IS ABOUT TIME THEY WOKE UP! Britain can work together if honour is restored, no matter what the ideology, as long as it is not one, which will destroy the British people and Great Britain with it. I believe it will not be long before Scotland and Wales will want their independence.
What I need now is another controversial subject...please give me one to get my teeth into Howard.
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. I went to St Mary's School in Queen Steet Dover, which no longer exists. I do not like the changes being done to the Dover seafront by people who do not really have the town's people at heart. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the prince of Wales Pier and had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs, which are now filled in with concrete.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour board is contemplating. If the Yacht Marina is moved out of the inner harbour and into the bay it will become just another rubbish dump. It is obvious that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years on the small boats before I retired in 2003 as a survey and environmental cox'n. The last ten yearssurveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand...and a lot of silt moving out there. If they fill the Granville Docks in, where I used to help unload fruit boats in the good old days. It will just become another huge lorry park in the future.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse by the swarms of immigrants coming over from France and further afield. With fewer customs, once the immigrants twig there is another way in they will take it. I have been to sea in three Merchant Navies since 1959 and have always believed Britain, being an island should have had a container fleet Merchant Navy manned by british sailors, the best in the world, trading with its Commonwealth. The Greek fiasco has proved the politicians cannot be trusted,nor the big Banks, to have any intrest in the working people of Britain, only in themselves... Who owns the town, is it business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board, or is there a hidden agenda. What is the plan for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier. QUESTIONS have to be asked and honest ANSWERS given. Already European countries have huge interests in our utilities and other, used to be publicily owned, businesses. We may as well not had a war, not when we are being slowly taken over by foreign interests. Britain was once a country to be proud of and brave people defended its honour and died for it. I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers, and those Dover people whomust have lost their lives there. Just what did my father and those brave people fight for? I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties, who had actually been in the water a number of times after being torpedoed. Over fifty thousand seamen died and thousands of our Navy, Airmen, and Army died for our freedom. Will the young remember them when those left are gone. I no longer free free any more, only a sense of foreboding for our younger generation.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
With all due respect John I think you need to be specific on a thread rather than go off into worldwide politics, people respond better on an individual subject on forums.
Having said that yes I am a Blairite because he actually achieved things for the "peoples party" whilst in charge. Is he a war criminal? All the leading lights of the other parties backed him at the time. I would much rather have a slick politician that does things for the people than a soul searching dreamer.
Saw Jeremy Corbyn last night on Newsnight, first time I have seen him interviewed. Came across as a genuine bloke, no evasions at all and cannot think of anything bad to say about him other than he will give the Blues carte blanche to do as they want.
Guest 1555- Registered: 23 Jul 2015
- Posts: 29
Thank you, for your reply Howard.
I noticed in the Times today that the militants are trying to get into the act. There is nothing worse than greedy ultra militant Union officials and nothing more soul destroying than lazy union members who do not vote on issues affecting them. The latter not bothering to vote, let these militant parasites in. Parasites who are only out for themselves, with perks the public would not believe.
I have been a union member for most of my working life and know that members who do not vote are opening the door to radical Union policies. I believe as the present government does. That at least 40% of the vote is needed to carry a strike. How can a train driver be worth £50,000 per annum with 45 to 50 days holiday a year, and at the same time hold the public worker to ransom? I do not believe there was a 40% strike vote cast in that Union.
We need to weed out these militant officials before they destroy the chances of a man who is for the working people, and who has been an MP for some time, and take our country back into the dark ages. It will also spoil the chances of Unions and workers who do follow the proper line, as now, the public are poised to believe anything...a public who only seem to wake up when trouble is brewing.
Good Unions are needed to keep greedy employers in line with fair negotiation. Without them we would all be on zero/hour contracts... I hope the powers that be also make a check to see there are no mud slinging Conservatives in the Labour woodpile, when the leadership vote comes up. If Corbyn is voted out through dirty tricks, and not given a fair chance to prove himself... Then Britain is indeed in deep trouble from its corrupted political system, for Corbyn is an elected MP and the mud slinging members of the Lords, who are trying to destroy him are not.
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. I went to St Mary's School in Queen Steet Dover, which no longer exists. I do not like the changes being done to the Dover seafront by people who do not really have the town's people at heart. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the prince of Wales Pier and had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs, which are now filled in with concrete.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour board is contemplating. If the Yacht Marina is moved out of the inner harbour and into the bay it will become just another rubbish dump. It is obvious that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years on the small boats before I retired in 2003 as a survey and environmental cox'n. The last ten yearssurveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand...and a lot of silt moving out there. If they fill the Granville Docks in, where I used to help unload fruit boats in the good old days. It will just become another huge lorry park in the future.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse by the swarms of immigrants coming over from France and further afield. With fewer customs, once the immigrants twig there is another way in they will take it. I have been to sea in three Merchant Navies since 1959 and have always believed Britain, being an island should have had a container fleet Merchant Navy manned by british sailors, the best in the world, trading with its Commonwealth. The Greek fiasco has proved the politicians cannot be trusted,nor the big Banks, to have any intrest in the working people of Britain, only in themselves... Who owns the town, is it business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board, or is there a hidden agenda. What is the plan for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier. QUESTIONS have to be asked and honest ANSWERS given. Already European countries have huge interests in our utilities and other, used to be publicily owned, businesses. We may as well not had a war, not when we are being slowly taken over by foreign interests. Britain was once a country to be proud of and brave people defended its honour and died for it. I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers, and those Dover people whomust have lost their lives there. Just what did my father and those brave people fight for? I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties, who had actually been in the water a number of times after being torpedoed. Over fifty thousand seamen died and thousands of our Navy, Airmen, and Army died for our freedom. Will the young remember them when those left are gone. I no longer free free any more, only a sense of foreboding for our younger generation.
