Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
11 December 2010
20:3084129The dispute on tuition fees is between many students and to whatever extent of university staff on one part, and the Government on the other.
The Police obviously cannot be everywhere at one time to stop the breaking of windows, but one does trust and hope that anyone rioting in this way is not intent on harming people physically.
This behaviour comes under the term of civil unrest, or similar terms, and the Police cannot be expected to know beforehand where each person is who has decided to smash windows or storm buildings. And when many do this in civil unrest, the Police often do not react as if it were just four thugs at work, because there are thousands out there, and precisely so as not to hit those who are not breaking windows but are nearby, the Police might not intervene for a broken window, also because it could lead to much worse: broken bones, on both sides. So the Police have to take many aspects into account.
Let's not forget that the crowds are angry, and there are tens of thousands of demonstartors.
It is also obvious that the Police cannot allow the protesters to enter the House of Parliament, and yet the crowds came very close. The Police had to put up a stand, otherwise we could talk of puting our Country into shameful humiliation if any angry group of protesters could just storm the Parliament.
Howard, if in these conditions some Police have had to hit back at the front line of incited crowds, and hit someone who later claims not to have been intent on violence, although in the middle of a storm against the Police lines, sorry mate, it's not the fault of the Police.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
11 December 2010
20:3584130shall we wait to see the evidence alex, reports say he was walking away from a trouble spot.
let's not forget that most violent offenders at these sort of events are well known to the police and should be arrested as soon as seen.
the top brass spend hundreds of hours studying surveillance footage of previous demonstrations and are supposed to use this to anticipate events thus saving injuries to police and public, not forgetting vandalism to property.
Guest 703- Registered: 30 Jul 2010
- Posts: 2,096
11 December 2010
20:4284132Howard, afraid it wasn't me playing banjo with the Floyd but I did once play with members of one of their best tribute bands so I'm still hoping and waiting for the phone call.
Lots of different views about what went on being expressed here, I watched continuous coverage on Sky nNws from about 5pm, it was fairly obvious who was causing the trouble generally and I hope all those responsible are brought to book, and all those injured recover soon.
11 December 2010
20:4784134Jan - don't take umbrage - there have been some sane and thoughtful posts, yours among them. But most have been knee-jerk, thoughtless and unhelpful in moving the discussion on. They do a disservice to both the majority of the students and the majority of the police.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
11 December 2010
21:0584141Bern, I have not taken umbrage I forgot to put the
at the end, my excuse is a couple of large wines with my son after work. I will try not to slurr my words too much.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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11 December 2010
21:0984143I take your
and raise you a
!! I would join you in a large sauvignon if I didn't have to pick up my daughter from work later!! I will catch up tomorrow!
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
11 December 2010
21:1684145-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
11 December 2010
22:4584161This has been a really thought provoking thread-with some passionate personal views. Alex-you mention that worrying expression...civil unrest. We last saw this during the poll tax demonstrations and that was frightening,mainly because it resulted in a change in the law. What I also find particularly disturbing is that violent protests can quite easily be predicted and aren't. The latest student debacle can be traced back to a number of opposition MP's recklessly making promises they knew they could not keep. I can just picture all the old school seasoned politicians all wincing when they saw the giant sized signed pledges, all designed to procure the young vote. To a man they must all have thought-"your'e gonna regret that old sons". Now of course it's come back to bite them in the back of the neck. The only way out was for them to have the backbone to unilaterally keep their pledge to the students and forsake their prized places in government. That wasn't to be...just volumes of political excuses and avoiding the question.
Barry I share your revulsion of violence and orchestrated civil disobedience. However, my patience would have been severely tested if I had been anywhere near the louts disrespecting our fallen heroes or anything which is essentially part of our depleting National Heritage including our last real bastion of Britishness,our now somewhat beleaguered Royal Family. The police should really have looked after them better than they did earlier this week. It was a very sad day-even sadder when we realise that we have Cambridge University student who claims not to know the significance of the Cenotaph. Dumbed down? I should say so-who on earth admitted this moron to Cambridge in the first place?
We can only hope that the students and the rent a mob calm down a bit so that the politicians can go away,learn from their mistakes(who am I kidding) and we can return to relative normality.
Finally-Prince Charles could really capture the moment here if he is sharp witted and measured in comment. He could make a few more friends if he played his cards right-and not just with the students.
Never give up...
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
11 December 2010
23:4984163two legs bad four legs good?
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
11 December 2010
23:5284165If we analyse the various necessities behind the stances respectively of the Government and the students who are protesting - as well as those who haven't protested but might still not be in favour of tuition fee rises, I would say that the enormous national debt of about 900 billion pounds, and the fact that it is ever-increasing, plays an important role in Gov's decision to raise the tuition fees.
It is a fact that tutition costs at universities are about three to four times higher than the hitherto flat-rate fees (over 1000 pounds) and arguably higher than the capped fee of annually 3000 pounds.
So the universities need more funding to continue teaching, and the Treasury has not got the money to dish out student loans to all and sundry from every EU country, which by EU law they have had to do, as EU students can not pay more than British students. So by increasing the total per annum fee to correspond to that what a university year usally costs in real terms (about 9,000 pounds on average), Gov. is being realistic, because the non-British EU students must then pay the same!
However, let us not forget that this is the maximum cap a university can charge for British and EU students, and so, many universities will in fact be charging less than 9,000 pounds a year.
There is also the provision that universities that will be charging over £6000 per annum must give some kind of bursary for at least a certain number of poorer students.
We should also consider that about 57,000 Indian students attended British universities in 2010, plus many from Pakistan, and an even higher number from China. These, and all other non-EU students are charged according to the international non-EU rates of each university, on average about 9-14,000 pounds a year, so they evidently do cover at their own expense the costs for their education, which is fair enough.
But Gov. is introducing measures to ensure that under degree students and also graduates cannot just get a job and stay here while studying or after completing their course, or simply get a job in Britain and not studay at all. Minister Graham Green has said that this sort of abuse must stop and that once the sudents have completed their course they must go home.
As the Land of Hope and Glory, we must know how to afford our expenses, and limits have to be made known, as ours is a limited Land, and we have been going over our means and possibilities and have been far too generous to so many, and got ourselves into great debt because of it.
Perhaps many students are too young to realise this, and too innocent, and I understand this. I do believe in the rights to affordable education, but we have to consider how much is in our collective purse in the Treasury.
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
12 December 2010
08:4884176alex,its called people power.
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
12 December 2010
09:4884183I asked 18yr old grandson Jamie who hopes to go to uni next year what he thought of the student demonstrations expecting some sympathy, also about the attack on the royal car, I quote.
"They are stupid and it does the cause no good at all" and "it's not right he shouldn't have been involved he has nothing to do with the demo"
I think that just about sums the situation up.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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12 December 2010
10:0384187I have just 2 thoughts to share: Prince Charles, sharp witted and measured in comment?
#69 - loved it!!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
12 December 2010
15:3484206a lot of mug shots have been issued to the media, so we should get a few arrests pretty soon.
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
12 December 2010
16:1884209are they charlies/camilas or william/kates,oh ok 14 mugshots most wanted to be grassed up so called mates for a fiver.
really.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
12 December 2010
16:2584211yes brian yu never know who your mates are.
i always recall a bloke he was a train driver but also active local dart player he crashed a train whilst under the influence, whilst this was wrong, he had all the national media outside his house because his so called friends from local pubs sold a story.
instead of going to the correct people before a major incident they knowingly allowed it to go on
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
12 December 2010
17:3784231A lot of the faces which need names putting to them appeared to be VERY mature students !!!
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
12 December 2010
17:4984237Ross Miller- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
12 December 2010
23:5884289Bern at least someone got it - thank god for some erudition
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
13 December 2010
00:0384293ross
others of us have read "animal farm" too!!
