Guest 664- Registered: 23 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,039
#1
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#2
They have sneaked it in, the original plan was the view from the pier was obscured part the way down so there would be temporary closure now it is permanent. Not surprisingly this is all done before our community representatives are officially on the board.
https://www.dover.uk.com/forums/dover-forum/dhb-anouncmenthoward mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#3
Guest 697- Registered: 13 Apr 2010
- Posts: 622
#4
Dover is first and foremost an operational port and the DHB are primarily responsible for ensuring that it meets the needs of customers now and into the future. The Prince of Wales pier has changed throughout time to meet the needs of the port, for example, when the hoverport moved to the Western Docks. In my view it's been obvious throughout the extensive consultation that there would be major changes to the pier. Alongside this, however, is the potential for a new pier and a more vibrant waterfront development that will provide the public amenity that many would like to see.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#5
Just to clarify things Dover is now a "Community Port" as decreed by government and no amount of propaganda will overrule that. It is now well over 6 months since DHB were supposed to induct community board members but have deliberately chosen not to. The extensive consultation said nothing about closing the Prince of Wales pier to the public on a permanent basis.
No Dovorian with half a brain believes stuff about "potential for a new pier or a more vibrant waterfront development" experience says the opposite.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
#6
I was typing a long and considered response about this and how the port has changed since I returned to my home town in the 60s, then realised there's no point - the way it's going we'll soon need a passport to get across the A20 and the nearest free access to the sea will be Deal or Folkestone.
As for a vibrant waterfront, I'm off to Whitstable.
Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,261
#7
Arte et Marte
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#8
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#9
Another worrying thing is that there is no cut off date for objections and with demolition due to start in the Autumn no time to prevaricate. I suspect the application's timing was meant to be when so many people are on holiday.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,931
#10
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Griping on social media but only 18 people have commented on the planning application.
Probably because they know that DHB will get what they want regardless of what Dovorians want,
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
#11
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Another worrying thing is that there is no cut off date for objections and with demolition due to start in the Autumn no time to prevaricate. I suspect the application's timing was meant to be when so many people are on holiday.
Email
developmentcontrol@dover.gov.uk and/or
cllrfrederickscales@dover.gov.uk (Chair of Planning) to ask why no cut-off date - there is probably a statutory time limit for one to be advertised and that should slow things up a bit if it has to be started again from Day 1
DT1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 15 Apr 2008
- Posts: 1,116
#12
I was up on the Western Heights last week and was pointing out parts of the harbour to a group of teenagers. Whilst very few had been on the Admiralty pier, most talked fondly about the Prince of Wales (pier), talking of walks with their families or fishing with their dads.
Now whilst it is not the prettiest of piers, it is absolutely outrageous that it should be taken away. At a time when so many coastal towns are desperately trying to preserve and restore piers, it is sad that this proposal is even being considered.
As for the planning application, I would be surprised if the same constraints apply to DHB as to the rest of us. Even if they did, rejection would rely on the planning department to make a sound, informed decision - I wouldn't hold your breath.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
#13
It is sad but time move on and we need more trade coming into the town for the shops and jobs if both comes with this development then it might be worth it.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#14
The western docks development will not bring in any more trade to the town, some jobs yes and it would be the same number of jobs as were in the original plans put before us.
All that will happen is that sea anglers, photographers, artists, joggers and families getting some fresh air will lose a great facility for all time, I hope the planning committee bear this in mind.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
#15
My experience before the planning committee last year to represent Lydden Parish Council in objecting in objecting to the conversion of the Lydden Bell leaves me thinking otherwise, voting was on party and personal lines not on the facts - though there are a couple of new faces on there who are independent thinkers.
Guest 1555- Registered: 23 Jul 2015
- Posts: 29
#16
DOVER HARBOUR DEVELOPMENT, BRITAIN, AND ITS FUTURE IN EUROPE: AN ESSAY UP FOR DEBATE.
***
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. Apart from twenty years in Australia, most of it in the Australian Merchant Navy. Ten years in France. Dover has been my home for most of my life.
I went to St Mary's School in Queen Street Dover as a nipper. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the Prince of Wales Pier. I had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs of the Pier, which now lie under tons of concrete. Legs never to be seen again because of Hover Speeds noisy interlude.
I do not like the changes in progress planned for the Dover seafront. By people who do not have the town's citizens at heart, only their own commercial interests. Nor do I like what is happening to Britain either.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour Board is contemplating. To build another Yacht Marina in the outer bay will cause the bay to become just another rubbish dump, sewage disposal area, and a silt trap. It is evident that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people. Just as it is in other parts of Britain.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years, after a lifetime at sea. I worked on the small boats before I retired in 2003 from the job of survey and environmental cox'n on the Diana and Dracula. The last ten years surveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches every single month. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand. The harbour board's dredger keeps the silt down to a manageable level or the harbour would silt up. The harbour is not as deep as people ashore think it is. It is subject to strong tides and moving silt.
If they were to fill the Granville Docks in. It will just become another huge Lorry park or a complex of luxury apartments for wealthy yacht owners in the future. I do not think the Harbour Board would consider building and renting social housing there as an option. There would be no money in it.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse in France and Southern Europe by the swarms of fleeing immigrants seeking a better life, coming in from overseas. With fewer Custom's launches and Navy patrol boats hundreds would get through. Once the desperate immigrants twig there is another easier route into Britain than the Lorries are, they will take the chance. If the people smugglers can afford big cargo boats. They can also afford to buy or steal hundreds of small sailing and motor boats from marinas in Africa and the Mediterranean. Which could land their human cargo in any one of hundreds of secluded inlets and beaches around Britain's coast. We would have an invasion on a par with the invasion of the ancient Vikings. I do not think the smugglers would care too much for the immigrant lives lost at sea in transit. I believe this to be an option in the close future. As in my job with the harbour board, it was part of my duties to escort yachts in and out of the harbour or from going aground. There were few yellow quarantine flags flown for the officials to come aboard and little interest in private yachts at the quayside, except as revenue.
I have served at sea in three different Merchant Navies since 1959. I have always believed in Britain, being and staying an island nation. It should have a container Merchant Navy fleet owned by British companies like P&O. Staffed by British sailors, officers, and men. Who are the best-trained seamen in the world? Trading with its Commonwealth people. Instead of being held to ransom and marooned by its French neighbours and others, every time there is a ferry strike or dispute over the Channel.
Modern Politicians have proved they do not have the people's interests at heart, only their own. The Greek fiasco, which will not be the last, as Portugal, Spain, and Ireland could suffer next, is a case in point. Politics has proved distrust and lack of honour for years now. The big banks are the same. The complete European economy is in deficit. Over-governed by too many corrupt politicians, local and national. With myriads of unelected Commissioners making most of the decisions. Some live an opulent lifestyle on the taxpayer with undeclared income on the side. There is never any proof unless caught and then only a smack on the wrist. QUESTION: Why? Why did Iceland jail their offending bankers? Why did so many Councils have hundreds of millions in taxpayers money invested in offshore accounts? While the other countries including Britain bailed their banks out with taxpayer's money. Britain to the tune of over four-hundred, or more, billion pounds. The true sum is still a mystery... QUESTIONS. What does a billion or two matter anyway and who signs these cheques? Why does a bank CEO receive millions in bonuses plus millions in salaries? Why a pension in the hundreds of thousands of pounds annually too? Moreover, all made legal and above board by contracts. Legal and illegal are just worthless words now, as laws can be made to suit any occasion when needed.
The British people voted this government in at the last election. Only because the Independent party. Led in Britain by an elected European MEP, and the other smaller parties split the vote through our inadequate voting system. Where less than half the vote can elect a government, as it did in Thatcher's time. Our voting system needs changing to a fairer system regardless of what the last referendum result was. Most people did not understand what they were voting for anyway. It will be the same with the IN/OUT European vote when it comes up. Where is the leader of the Independent party now? He seems to have vanished into the woodwork...is he back in Europe riding the Gravy train again as a re-elected MEP. Our government has proved they have no real interest in the working people of Britain. Except as taxable income, either legitimate or by stealth. After all, who would pay them 10% rise every year?
Who owns Dover town. Is it big business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board? Is there a hidden agenda by the County Council and the local town council acting against the wishes of the local people? What are the impending plans, if any, for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier? Are European interests making the poorer British people the rent payers of Europe? While they buy up the housing stock? Who owns the Royal Mail, sold for peanuts to whom for a song? Why are the British people so dispirited? More QUESTIONS that need ANSWERS. It goes on...
Most of the British people are not stupid, just lethargic. They need to wake up and ask questions as modern politicians have proved themselves masters of misdirection and deceit.
Already European and foreign countries have large interests in our infrastructure and utilities. With assets going abroad into offshore accounts and foreign investors' pockets. Maybe into politicians' pockets too? Too many companies, owned by the public, sold to private investors at a cheap price without the public knowing who the real buyers are. Who does own the Royal Mail or the water and power companies now?
Multi-millionaires are governing the country today. Which cannot be in the interests of the working people who pay most of the taxes. Is it right for the majority of people to live in Austerity while those in power live well on their taxes? My wife and I can just get by on our pensions and so we should. We spent a lifetime working to pay for it. These are more QUESTIONS, which need honest ANSWERS from those who govern us.
The First and Second World Wars have become a joke. We should have sold the country to the highest bidder then and saved millions of lost lives. However, then, the British people, its Commonwealth, and those of our Allies were made of sterner stuff... They knew what they were facing if they did not fight and win. We also had a leader of merit then with which no politician of today can compete. He was the man of his century with honour in his heart and a great love for his country.
Britain was once the head of a Commonwealth of Nations, of two billion people. It was a Commonwealth to be proud of, with our Queen as its Head of State. Until we abandoned it and joined Europe. Now our House of Lords is nothing more than a lucrative geriatric retirement home. Catering for, appointed but not elected, aging politicians and their aging business backers. I cannot believe our well-loved Queen sanctions this scandal of politically appointed Lords and Ladies. Even the heir to the British throne is muzzled from speaking out. What have these political Lords and Ladies done to earn their meaningless titles? Where is Britain going, where will it end up? Still more QUESTIONS. QUESTIONS. QUESTIONS.
I still remember the days when I could join a cargo ship of the British Merchant Navy. Docked in the London Docks. Loading cargoes for Australia, New Zealand, America, Canada, South Africa, and other distant parts of the Commonwealth. Bringing cargoes back too to Britain. The London Docks, loved by all deep seamen and always alive with trade then. Docks now sold at a knockdown price by a landlubber to other landlubbers who have no interest in a British Merchant Navy, only more development to benefit them financially. Sold to Chinese or other interests with the then Lord Mayor's company acting as the intermediary. Is Dover Harbour to suffer the same fate to make a few people here and I suspect some in Europe richer? Anyone who has the money today can buy Britain whether he or she be foreign or not.
I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers. I always think of the Dover people who must have perished under their onslaught. I can still see the torn wallpaper on the walls and fireplaces hanging in the breeze in my mind. With the Buglia bushes growing on broken walls full of butterflies in late July. Just why did our grandfathers, fathers, elder brothers, and sisters, have to die...if they died for nothing? For what did all those brave people fight? I like to believe it was for a better life of freedom and fair play for all... Not what we have now...a divided land ripe for the plucking by those in a position to pluck it clean.
I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties. Who had been in the water many times after torpedoes, sank their ships. Over fifty thousand Merchant seamen died in the Second World War and thousands of people from our Commonwealth Navy, Air force, and Army too. All to secure our freedom. Must we forget so soon or is that Nature's way... Survival of the fittest. Even if it means the poorest will suffer in the future, which means nothing to harsh Nature. Nevertheless, should mean something to us as human beings living within a community.
Will our younger generations remember the Heroes when our generation is dead and gone? I no longer feel a free spirit anymore. Sometimes I do not even feel British. At least I have my Australian Nationality. Yet in my heart, I know I will never see that beautiful land again. All I have is a sense of foreboding for our younger generation and their future and a great disrespect for those in power.
Our younger generations only have one wish. To live a decent life without too much interference from big business and the politicians who feed off their hard work. Those who only want a job with those who will pay them enough, after taxes. Enough to buy their own family home instead of paying rent to those who live like parasites off them. The system of zero hour contracts must go. It is not a fair system of employment for those who want steady employment, especially the young. There is no job security or satisfaction in zero hour contracts... Enough is enough.
Let us get back to caring for each other. Life is too short not to. Life will be far shorter in years to come, if at all. When Nature decides she has enough of the human parasite on her Earth. One who will always fight a losing battle against her awesome power? It is a battle they cannot win. If that is the future then I am glad I will not be here to see it. It is not too late to change things...or is it?
My main reason for writing this essay, for that is what it is an Essay. I wanted to bring fierce debate into the equation in a forum situation where people at all levels of society can have his or her say. As long as there is life in these old bones, I will be a thorn in the side of those who do not care for those less fortunate. I cannot fathom why some people need more riches than they will ever need to live a fruitful life. Especially when they have it in their power to give a better life to others less fortunate than they. As our Chancellor so aptly put it. "We are all in this together." Did he mean just the politicians, the bankers, their backers, or everyone?
There is much more, which can be added to this article. Seven billion pounds to repair the Houses of Parliament. Just who will be awarded those lucrative contracts? The present scandal of politician's expenses, local, national and European? I could go on forever... If there is another life on this vale of tears. I would like to come back and change our greedy world into a better existence for all. For in my heart I have always been an honourable man...and that without religion getting in the way. All it would take. Honour within 'The Golden Rule.' Is that too much to ask?
***
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. I went to St Mary's School in Queen Steet Dover, which no longer exists. I do not like the changes being done to the Dover seafront by people who do not really have the town's people at heart. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the prince of Wales Pier and had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs, which are now filled in with concrete.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour board is contemplating. If the Yacht Marina is moved out of the inner harbour and into the bay it will become just another rubbish dump. It is obvious that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years on the small boats before I retired in 2003 as a survey and environmental cox'n. The last ten yearssurveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand...and a lot of silt moving out there. If they fill the Granville Docks in, where I used to help unload fruit boats in the good old days. It will just become another huge lorry park in the future.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse by the swarms of immigrants coming over from France and further afield. With fewer customs, once the immigrants twig there is another way in they will take it. I have been to sea in three Merchant Navies since 1959 and have always believed Britain, being an island should have had a container fleet Merchant Navy manned by british sailors, the best in the world, trading with its Commonwealth. The Greek fiasco has proved the politicians cannot be trusted,nor the big Banks, to have any intrest in the working people of Britain, only in themselves... Who owns the town, is it business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board, or is there a hidden agenda. What is the plan for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier. QUESTIONS have to be asked and honest ANSWERS given. Already European countries have huge interests in our utilities and other, used to be publicily owned, businesses. We may as well not had a war, not when we are being slowly taken over by foreign interests. Britain was once a country to be proud of and brave people defended its honour and died for it. I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers, and those Dover people whomust have lost their lives there. Just what did my father and those brave people fight for? I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties, who had actually been in the water a number of times after being torpedoed. Over fifty thousand seamen died and thousands of our Navy, Airmen, and Army died for our freedom. Will the young remember them when those left are gone. I no longer free free any more, only a sense of foreboding for our younger generation.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#17
Interesting read John but I will stick with present, the past we can do nothing about. You refer to the old London Docks being sold off to private developers. I was brought 50 yards from the entrance to the Victoria & Albert and remember the vibrancy of stevedores going back and forth 7 days week at times. Eventually it was found that deep sea shipping got a cheaper and quicker turnaround in Antwerp and Rotterdam. Dover is a different matter after the fight to sell of the port by DPPT forced the then Government to think up a way the Dover citizens could get some benefit to the town to balance things up.
The Minister last year decreed it to be a community port meaning that they appoint three community directors on high salaries to work 3 days a week who were supposed to be in place by January 1st, seems clear that they won't be appointed until they have completed what they set out to do.
I am going by memory so please feel free to make corrections.
Guest 977- Registered: 27 Jun 2013
- Posts: 1,031
#18
There are questions now being raised by people who know better than me that the relevant minister allowed the HRO to be changed without further consultation from a ferry development (T2) to a cargo development (Western Docks Revival), something that could be up for a legal challenge by the right body with the knowledge and finance - do they exist, or indeed should this be raised by DDC at the planning meeting?
Maybe Neil could enlighten us on this situation if it doesn't compromise him.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
#19
I have heard rumblings to that effect Ray, wasn't surprised at the duplicitous move. Who would launch the legal challenge though?
I have e mailed Cllr Scales pointing out the lack of cut off date and requested clarification, so far only 18 objections to the application and not one Town/District/County councillor has posted as far as I can see.
Guest 1555- Registered: 23 Jul 2015
- Posts: 29
#20
Those were the days Howard... But as you said we cannot do anything about the past. It is so frustrating knowing we don't seem to be doing much about the future either. I am working on an essay on why we need a central government at all. Most people do not know their MP's. Especially if they do not live in the place they are supposed to represent. Why can't the County Councils run Britain with people voted into office who acutally live in the locallity. Working together they could come up with something where there is an elected Senator to each County who can sit in the Commons, and an elected Lord Mayor who can sit in the House of Lords, instead of the fiasco we have now. In the fifties there were forty-two counties in England. Now there are Ninty-two with Thirty-three in Scotland, Thirteen in Wales, and Six or Seven in Northern Ireland. Each with a County Council running the Counties quite well. With nearly every town with its local council helping them. There is far too much money going into central government, and not enough coming back. The people of the Counties know their councillors well, and most have their people at heart. Surely, we can come up with a better system of elected government than we have now. I cannot put my trust in people who are already well-off before they take office. Their real interest cannot be with those who work hard for a living...there are too many temptations elsewhere. The dispatches program opened that can of worms when two ex-ministers were charging lobbyists for their services, talking about fees of between £3000 to £5000 for a mornings work. Not many know about the all-party lobbying groups either. I believe Britain and Europe are being grossly over Governed to the tune of billions of pounds wasted on overcharging of expences, as usual paid for by the taxpayer, who is their employer. Things will not change until the people wake up. Andy Stucken is right. The people of Britain seem to lack a backbone when it comes to voting. If Mr Corben gets in as Leader of the Labour party, maybe there will be a chance for the working man. He did not need the cruel critism of Tony Blair the other day on national TV as Blair's Labour government was no different to the Conservative Party, and he seemed to do alright out of it...The people need someone like Corben, he is for the working man. Blair's unjust critism of Corben showed just how much he cared about the working man. He is out of politics now and making good money elsewhere, he should keep his mouth shut. With Blair and Brown you got the same whoever you voted for, Labour or the Conservatives. If you voted for the Liberals or other parties all you did was split the vote in favour of the top two parties. It is not a democratic system when the votes, which go to the minor parties are completely wasted...like in the last General Election and the Inderpendent vote... I hope this government will do something about Dover. I also hope the Dover Council and the County Council will realise that Dover does not want big business moving in to the deprement of the town. I fear though, that as the years go by and Dover's population becomes diluted more and more by outsiders, the interest in our town,s troubles will dwindle. I sincerely hope not.
I have been in Dover since coming over from India in 1947 when all the British nationals had to leave. I went to St Mary's School in Queen Steet Dover, which no longer exists. I do not like the changes being done to the Dover seafront by people who do not really have the town's people at heart. I used to play in the rock pools with my twin brother under the prince of Wales Pier and had my first job in Dover painting the wrought iron legs, which are now filled in with concrete.
I feel a sense of loss at what The Dover Harbour board is contemplating. If the Yacht Marina is moved out of the inner harbour and into the bay it will become just another rubbish dump. It is obvious that big business is moving in against the wishes of the Dover people.
I worked at the Dover Harbour Board for thirteen years on the small boats before I retired in 2003 as a survey and environmental cox'n. The last ten yearssurveying the bottom of the harbour and its approaches. I know the tides and the bottom better than my own hand...and a lot of silt moving out there. If they fill the Granville Docks in, where I used to help unload fruit boats in the good old days. It will just become another huge lorry park in the future.
I also think the small boats are open to abuse by the swarms of immigrants coming over from France and further afield. With fewer customs, once the immigrants twig there is another way in they will take it. I have been to sea in three Merchant Navies since 1959 and have always believed Britain, being an island should have had a container fleet Merchant Navy manned by british sailors, the best in the world, trading with its Commonwealth. The Greek fiasco has proved the politicians cannot be trusted,nor the big Banks, to have any intrest in the working people of Britain, only in themselves... Who owns the town, is it business interests in Europe, the Harbour Board, or is there a hidden agenda. What is the plan for the Western approaches from Shakespeare Cliff to the Admiralty pier. QUESTIONS have to be asked and honest ANSWERS given. Already European countries have huge interests in our utilities and other, used to be publicily owned, businesses. We may as well not had a war, not when we are being slowly taken over by foreign interests. Britain was once a country to be proud of and brave people defended its honour and died for it. I am seventy-seven years old now and retired. I still remember the gaps left in the high street by German bombers, and those Dover people whomust have lost their lives there. Just what did my father and those brave people fight for? I had the honour of sailing with two or three merchant seamen in the fifties and sixties, who had actually been in the water a number of times after being torpedoed. Over fifty thousand seamen died and thousands of our Navy, Airmen, and Army died for our freedom. Will the young remember them when those left are gone. I no longer free free any more, only a sense of foreboding for our younger generation.
