ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
It was indeed an awful time, Sue. Alexia mentions the Mogul but the Crown and Sceptre in Elms Vale was also a centre for the strikers. I was working for Townsends at the time and felt dreadfully uncomfortable. Ths strikers belligerence was not directed at shore based staff (I was in IT) fortunately.
The community became split when some workers returned and others, new to the ferries, moved in to take their places.
There is a lot of money in cross Channel transport. Eurotunnel is making millions at the moment. DFDS, with a conventional model of employees conditions, continues to trade at a profit and Irish Ferries, with a significantly different model based on agency staff, will mop up anything left from the P&O debacle.
Why else did they move into Dover? Never a good idea to listen to the Cap'ns limited understanding.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,577
Indeed Sue , again post 133 not on the side of those who have lost jobs .
I think that post on our MP summed her up .
Watch out any employee if P and O get away with this
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
ray hutstone wrote:There is a lot of money in cross Channel transport. Eurotunnel is making millions at the moment. DFDS, with a conventional model of employees conditions, continues to trade at a profit and Irish Ferries, with a significantly different model based on agency staff, will mop up anything left from the P&O debacle.
I'm having difficulty keeping in mind (now that I've spotted it) that there are two similarly-named entities: P&O Ferries Ltd and P&O Ferries Division Holdings Ltd (its parent and which has a range of other "children"). I'm assuming that the villain of the moment is the parent. Company accounts are not my forte but those for 2020 and previous are available on-line for both entities. If I read them correctly, whereas the parent has been running at a loss, this particular child has been profitable. Happy for correction or confirmation from Ray on the entities and finances.
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(Not my real name.)
victor matcham- Registered: 5 Oct 2021
- Posts: 869
What rubbish Mr Sansum is talking I Am a union man have been from the day I came out of the army I am now a life member is he in a union? what I said in post 133 that is. if he can read is yes P.O.were very wrong and the chairman should go ,but all will happen if P.O. go from Dover is a lost of more jobs well of 100 will go and also there are companys that rely on PO and the other ships for work + foodlets could go bust . And I am right. Get it right or say nothing mate.
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ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Button wrote:I'm having difficulty keeping in mind (now that I've spotted it) that there are two similarly-named entities: P&O Ferries Ltd and P&O Ferries Division Holdings Ltd (its parent and which has a range of other "children"). I'm assuming that the villain of the moment is the parent. Company accounts are not my forte but those for 2020 and previous are available on-line for both entities. If I read them correctly, whereas the parent has been running at a loss, this particular child has been profitable. Happy for correction or confirmation from Ray on the entities and finances.
Short answer is 'I don't know'. Without detailed research, my guess would be that P&O Ferries is a wholly owned subsidiary of P&O Ferries Divisional Holdings Ltd. which in turn is owned by DP World. Holding companies are commonly used to protect other assets (e.g. property) with an intrinsic market value, from the ups and downs of the trading entity. Also, of course, profits and losses can be set against each other as best suits the ultimate beneficial owner - in the case DP World. I suspect that is the case here.
P&O Ferries will be even deeper in the mire if they are unable to operate during the peak Easter period.
Jan Higgins, Captain Haddock, victor matcham and
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Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,500
The workers, United, will never be defeated?
'430 P&O staff have fully accepted their redundancy offer; 67 Captains and senior crew have signed new contracts'.
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,983
So much for solidarity .I wonder some times .Those jobs will go to foreign workers.Silly me .I stuck by my principles all those years ago.
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,500
It will be interesting to see how HMG proposes legislation to make sure 'ferries' arriving in the UK make sure that all workers on board are paid at the national minimum wage while most of the stuff you've bought today has been brought in by freight ships where workers are paid much less (hence the cheapness of your goods).
'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,577
I still say this is a PR disaster
Many will NOT use P and O
Iv heard the story of how principled and stick by others one of our posters is .
A neibour of mine told me of the time all the workers refused to work in an unsafe area , all apart from one
That's his solidarity .
I wouldn't , like many others use P and O
The safety is very questionable.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Captain Haddock wrote:It will be interesting to see how HMG proposes legislation to make sure 'ferries' arriving in the UK make sure that all workers on board are paid at the national minimum wage while most of the stuff you've bought today has been brought in by freight ships where workers are paid much less (hence the cheapness of your goods).
You're presumably referring to container freight as opposed to Ro-Ro. Don't quite understand why you need to put 'ferries' in inverted commas. Different market, old boy. Not much of our fresh tucker comes buried in a 40x20ft container from China.
Not hard to apply different rules for crew travelling from Dover to Calais 4 times a day. To use your favourite phrase - get real.
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
Captain Haddock wrote:It will be interesting to see how HMG proposes legislation to make sure 'ferries' arriving in the UK make sure that all workers on board are paid at the national minimum wage while most of the stuff you've bought today has been brought in by freight ships where workers are paid much less (hence the cheapness of your goods).
I guess the definition will have to be along the lines of 'a vessel wot can carry road vehicles'. Mind you, it makes you wonder how much profit accrues from the on-board spend by passengers and HGV drivers, and from the cars and coaches themselves, in the face of UK minimum waged customer-facing crew.
(Not my real name.)
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
Roll on, roll off, Button. As opposed to needing a relatively expensive infrastructure of cranes and tugs to help you to your eventual destination.
On-board freight catering never made much dosh for the ferries. That's why they put the drivers in separated areas and fed 'em at cheaper rates. If you go on the tunnel, you just get bussed into a lounge and gifted with a coffee and a bun. All the profit is in the ticket.
Coach passengers on the boats spend like the world is ending. The ticket vaue for the vehicle isn't high in terms of deck space occupied, but the passengers tend to get royally drunk, spend a fortune in duty free (as it once was) and stuff themselves silly. Not quite such largesse from car passengers but their own onboard contribution is still very important for the ferries.
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
Oh yeah, oops, sorry. Should've checked whether ro-ro is defined in law; it is: “ro-ro passenger ship” means a ship carrying more than 12 passengers, having ro-ro cargo spaces or special category spaces as defined in Regulation II-2/3 of the SOLAS Convention. Was also wondering, margin-wise, if we might see modal change to, say, unaccompanied or lo-lo (highly unlikely I guess, though P&O have tried it before), but evidently not from what you say.
(Not my real name.)
ray hutstone- Registered: 1 Apr 2018
- Posts: 2,158
There is a limited market for unaccompanied freight on the ferries, Button. It's never been a huge sector of the market and it has always relied on DHB staff to drive the tugs (tractor units) to embark and disembark. An old friend of mine was doing this job for years!
Not much profit in it, for obvious reasons. And, of course, we're talking about HGV loads not shipping containers.
victor matcham- Registered: 5 Oct 2021
- Posts: 869
I have had to do jobs on P,O, that even the engine crew would not do, and I can understand why and now not even I would do them again but at that time as a contractor I and my gang had to do it, one was on the seaway when it first came into service ,and others were on the pride of Kent when they took it out of a overseas shipyard because of the bad job they done on it I got my gang of lads from the job centre and must say now they all were very good and made my job easier then it could have been , If you wish me to tell what we done you are going to have to aske me, but they were very very bad jobs
Captain Haddock- Location: Marlinspike Hall
- Registered: 8 Oct 2012
- Posts: 7,500
P&O’s Pride of Kent ferry has failed its safety inspection in Dover.
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'If no one went no faster than what I do there'd be a sight less trouble in this world'
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
Button- Location: Dover
- Registered: 22 Jul 2016
- Posts: 2,907
In da House today:
Natalie: "I thank my hon. Friend the Minister and my right hon. Friend the Secretary of State for working so closely with me and others since P&O took this disgraceful decision. Does my hon. Friend agree that the minimum wage proposal is a floor and not a ceiling? It would put ferry workers in the same position as other workers in this country and defeat P&O’s agency foreign workers model, such that P&O should just reinstate the Dover workforce now, on their current terms. Does my hon. Friend agree that the Government measures that are coming forward this week will support ferry operators and ferry workers and safeguard the Dover-Calais route for the future?"
Mr Courts: "First, I pay tribute to my hon. Friend for her fearless championing of her constituents. There is no one who speaks out with more persuasion, force and passion than she does for the people of Dover and her constituents, and I pay tribute to her for that. She asks whether the national minimum wage is a floor, not a ceiling, and I am very keen to say that there is a package we are considering. We will come to the House and explain what that package is in due course, and I hope the House will look forward to and welcome that when it comes."
(Not my real name.)
victor matcham- Registered: 5 Oct 2021
- Posts: 869
When doing the bad jobs I was asked not to say or talk about them, and up till now I have not done so,but there must be some reading about this. that were in my gang at that time to,and I say to them now again thank you so much for what and the help you give to myself.
victor matcham- Registered: 5 Oct 2021
- Posts: 869
Iam sorry to be talking in this manner like this about anyone but for some years now Mr Samson and I use the word Mr) loosely in this case has done nothing but hit at me on this forum .how dare he saY"i DO NOT SUPPORT THE PO WORKERS.I still hold my Army discharged book ,also my blue seaman Book showing the ships I have worked on over some years, and my union card I joined the union the very second day after coming out of the Army which I served for six years and that was in 1964 and stayed in the union right up till today and will die in the union When I went round most of the ship yards working in the UK you had to be in the union as a contractor and the years I was on the railways working on the PW and in the workshops I am a union man but not a militant one. Has Mr Samson ever been in a union or worked in ship yards or at sea? I very much doubt it, alot of his time was taken up by sitting on the D,D,C and the Kent C,C.which he pick up a very nice allowances .if YOU live in a greenhouse you should not throw stones.I do support the PO workers and feel
very sorry for them and what happen, but I also feel sorry for the personnel still working at PO and the fear of losing their jobs ,which as I said before will make even more unemployment in Dover.The town over many years have had a very hard time with the closure of the mines ,the Gas works .the paper mills. the Dover Engineering works and other companys even Parker pens and more. So Mr Samsom please stop it all now he is not the only one but I am now very fed up with it all apart from my years in the army and the times I have worked away from home in the UK and over seas I HAVE LIVED in Dover from 1942. End
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