Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
On the White Cliffs our Fair Lady Britannia has the Light-tower Church overlooking Dover and the Sea. It is possibly the oldest church in Kent, and was beautifully restored in the nineteenth century. This Church was probably founded by a reigning Kentish royal family, no doubt to demonstrate the preaching of the Gospel to the people of Kent.
The Church is situated along the East-West line of the sun.
Britannia inherited the Roman Empire, and so Her Church has the Roman light-tower standing right next to it, to illuminate the Haven and the Town and the surrounding Garden. From this Church Christianity would have spread all over Kent, and therefore, owing to this profound spiritual value, it is second to no other church or cathedral in our County.
Our Fair Lady's Church is protected and secure within the Castle compound, built upon Her Acropolis, and is dedicated to the Virgin Mary Mother of Christ. If we follow the line Her Church indicates from East to West, we'll see that it leads to the Foundations of Christchurch within the Court. Britannia is Mother of Beauty, and so She will have Christ's Church rebuilt following the original plan, using a scroll to determine the measurements and a line to draw the cornerstone. This scroll contains the Holy Scriptures, which is Her children's book, whereas the line is that of the sun as indicated by Her Light-tower Church.
You lost me, and I think that is a good thing..
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Who lost you, Sid? Can't figure out the meaning!
I just know I'm going to regret this, but here goes:
Britannia was a name used to describe Britain, and Britain most certainly did NOT inherit the Roman Empire.
"Her Acropolis". What is this? The definition from Encylopaedia Britannica (I thought you'd prefer that dictionary) is:
(Greek: "city at the top") Central, defensively oriented district in ancient Greek cities, located on the highest ground and containing the chief municipal and religious buildings".
The word "Greek" appears twice and is a hefty clue as to the origins of this type of construction. There were NO Greek buildings in England at the time of Roman occupation. Ergo "Her Acropolis" doesn't exist. The Temple of Mithras was buiilt in the first century AD, during Roman occupation and it is quite conceivable church design was based on this architectural model. It suggests Chritianity may have taken hold in London first and been exported to Kent and elswhere, using the Mithraic model for building design. I have found no evidence to suggest where the oldest church in Kent is, so, that remains open for debate.
I have found no reference to Britannia being described as "Mother of Beauty". Again, referring to EB we find:
"In the 2nd century Roman Britannia came to be personified as a goddess, armed with a spear and shield and wearing a centurion's helmet". Hmm, not very alluring if you ask me!
As for the waffle about lines and scrolls, no self-respecting architect OR mason would attempt to erect a building in such a manner.
There you go, that is for starters Alexander. I shall now return to my 'lost' status and try to work out what you took before making that posting.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
that clarified things sid.
anyway back to alexander now.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Christianity came two times to Britain. The Light-tower Church of Our Fair Lady gives historic account of this.
The Gospel had come to the Britons in the days of the Roman Empire.
Then Rome fell, and the Dark Ages came to Europe, but not to Britain. The Roman Light-tower had remained standing in Dover overlooking the Sea, and so the Gospel came again to the shores of Britain, to the Anglo-Saxons, hence Britannia's Saxon Church has the Roman Light-tower.
Being one of England's oldest churches, possibly the oldest, it stands in testimony to Christianity among the English, for which reason it was built.
So to follow the Fair Lady's directive and rebuild Christchurch within the Court can only be in honour of Christ. In fact, the direction which Her Church indicates leads to Christchurch Court.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
doubt if it will return a third time alexander.
anyway two questions:-
1) i thought that the church had always been called st mary in the castle, when was it called the light tower church of our fair lady?
2) where does the acropolis come in?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Hello Howard. I'll have to reply in two phases, as I have only five minutes to go today. The Church wasn't always called Saint Mary at the Castle, or In Castro, as it was built long before the Castle. The name In Castro was given after the Castle was built, to distinguish it from Saint Mary in the Town, the other church dedicated to the Virgin Mary in Dover. In fact, as I stated, the Church at tthe Castel is probably the oldest in England, certainly one of the oldest, and therfore is older than the castle, hence it didn't have the name In Castro to much later.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the light tower church of our fair lady??
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Howard, the 3rd time will unfortunately be cancelled due to the wind and snow !
I thought St Mary in Castro was from about 1000AD, a while before that guy Norman built something up there ?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Howard, you stated that the Church was always called St. Mary in the Castle, it wasn't, because it is much older than the Castle, however it has always been known as dedicated to Saint Mary the Virgin. Paul aka Scotchie, thanks for participating, however, the Church is a lot older than 1000 AD, and was built in the days when Kent had its own monarchy, and this could only have been by decision of the royal family of the time. The Norman William did have the Saxon fortifications over Dover extended into a kind of Moat and Baily, although the Castle as we know it is more from the thirtheenth and fourteenth centuries, as the kings of England recognised its fundamental importance in defending England.
I will give a more covering reply to Howard's and Sid's views and questions later today. However, I am glad you are showing interest in the theme.
It's not interest Alexander, it's more to do with trying to understand what the heck you are on about. As for which came first, castle or church, I suspect the castle in the guise of stone-age or iron-age fort came first.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Concerning your two questions, Howard, Light-tower Church and Acropolis, which Sid also put forward, I was glad to notice that, though you and Sid can dispute the presence of a Greek building within the Castle Walls, you can only recognise that there is a Roman Light-tower!
In so much I am right in stating that the Roman Empire is part of Britannia's Heritage! The Pharo is standing right next to the Church, and was used as a bell-tower for the same ecclesial building, the Church.
Therefore, I'm not wrong in calling it: the Light-tower Church, although I do agree that this is my personal attribute, out of affection to the Fair Lady. Of-course it is also called: Saint Mary at the Castle.
The Name: Britannia, is also my personal attribute, out of love and affection! I deemed it to be the greatest honour I could name our Mother in High! Also: Mother of Beauty! It's out of personal dedication, Howard!
That leaves open the question: Acropolis. The name is indeed Greek, and means: above the city (or town), Akro Polis, the higher part of a town, a citadel, that overlooks the lower, inhabited area of the town, and the surrounding country-side, and the sea! It's Greek in the same way as the Gospel is called Evangelion in Greek, from which original language it was translated into English.
I noted that Sid found a good description in Britannia's encyclopaedia to define the function of an Acropolis. It also applies to Dover: in fact the Cinque Ports used to have their head-quarters at Dover Castle!
Here we have a French term, meaning: the Five Ports.
The statement that Our Fair Lady shows us the way to Christchurch Court by way of Her Church within the Castle - in front of which stands a Roman Light-tower - as the ecclesial building is situated on the East-West line of the sun, is also very true, Sid. Along Folkestone Road you can see this. If you walk to Christchurch Court in the late afternoon, in the Folkestone direction, you can see that indeed the line follows the sun, from East to West. One need not go far along Folkestone Road to see that there is a Court where once a Church stood, dedicated to Jesus Christ. That also answers Sid's point about the line of the sun.
I remember this Church, I passed it every day to go to Saint Mary's school! Restoring the Church within the Court is a prospect to think about, as the Foundations are there to build upon, and the Scroll is there to read: the Holy Scriptures!
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
you do make us work hard alexander, i think i have got the drift now thanks.
Drift Howard, yep, I think I just might.
Thanks Alexander, may your God, or one of those fancy females you mention, go with you.
Well Alexander, I don't know if I follow you all the way but as far as saying that the said church was beautifully restored.. as far as I am concerned it now looks like a public toilet with all those horrendous tiles.
Also what about St Martin's church, now buried under the area round the NatWest bank and the White Cliffs Experience. I understand that that church was a lot older than any other in Dover.
Anyway, what is the point of the original post? Where is this Christchurch within the Court supposed to be?
And, what are you on?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Thanks Diana for joining in the discussion. The answer to your question about where Christchurch Court is, it's at the beginning of Folkestone Road, but exactly where, you'll find out in the following reply, which I intended posting separately, and which also answers your point about Saint Martin Priory.
The church that stood in Christchurch Court, called Christchurch, was demolished in the seventies, although it was in a perfect condition, being built in the middle of the nineteenth century. No doubt the flats built there earned a lot of money, private investment, and what I am trying to get on about is, to tell you quite frankly, I don't believe that any human person is the "head of the Church", pope included, but that only Jesus Christ is the Leader. Also, I was suggesting that one day the church that was within the Court along Folkestone Road could be rebuilt, honouring only Christ as Leader of the Church. I don't believe in privatising churches and demolishing or "converting" them into flats, nor do I believe that a national Church can be the privately run company of someone!
So, I'll just type in the reply that I had intended to, which also answers your well pointed out question, Diana concerning the age of Saint Martin and Saint Mary's in High. It should be conclusive to the topic, although by all means, if you wish, you can most definitely continue the theme, and I'll glady answer.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
The Church of Saint Mary at the Castle also faces Priory Station and the former Priory of Saint Mary and Saint Martin Newark, founded in 1130, which is exactly opposite Christchurch Court. So it seems that Our Fair Lady made a move on the Board, and came even closer to the point!
To further the point, this Priory, called "New Work", was built with funds from the Priory of Saint Martin le Grand, which was situated in the present Market Square. The Priory of Saint Martin le Grand was founded in the reign of Whthred king of Kent between 671 and 725, who transferred to there the secular canons who had until then been housed in the Castle area. So this proves that prior to kink Whitred's reign, the ecclesial centre of Dover was there where the Castle now is, and that the Church of Saint Mary must have been standing there, even though not necessarily in its late Saxon structure, as it may have been repaired or enlargened since it was originally built, hence there might be the impression that it is only from the end of the tenth century. Yet it can only be a lot older, as it is not conceivable that the ecclesiastic centre of Dover prior to king Withred - which was on the Eastern Heights - did not have a church!
So this move practically leaves the Fair Lady undisputed on the Board, proving that Her Church in High on the White Cliffs is certainly among the oldest in Kent, and in all of England!
AND She ran a Priory opposite Christchurch Court!
As for Christchurch being opposite St Martin's priory, anywhere is opposite anywhere if you draw a straight line. Also St Edmund's chapel is "opposite" St Martin's Priory.
And I really do not know what you are getting at. In these days when churches are more and more poorly attended, surely it would be better to concentrate on building up the congregations in the churches that do exist, than having pie in the sky ideas about rebuilding a 19th Century church that frankly was not that pretty.
It is also not the only church that was demolished. I can think of one other (St Bartholomews) and also there are no moves to rebuild the one that burnt down recently (opposite the Town Hall).
Finally - all christian churches are aligned east-west.
Unfortunately many saxon churches do not survive, even in archaeology, as they were frequently built of wood/wattle and daub. I am not sure why an ecclesiastical centre would be established within the precincts of a castle, when there would have been many less secular areas available in the town below. It could be postulated that a prior religious site had been in existence below St Martin's and that St Mary's in Castro was aligned with that.
