Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Form the excellent Bill Beer website
http://www.dover.freeuk.com/index.htmBeen nice knowing you :)
Who cares about Hougham or Christchurch, what about Fredville? That is such a great name for a village and I suspect there may be one or several 'Freds' living there. Got to find it on a map and go see, probably this afternoon. Fredville, who'd have thought it eh?
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Looks a very comprehensive site - when I have more time, I'll peruse around it.
Roger
Unregistered User
Fredville Park, Nonington. Sid
Watty
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Thank you Paul aka S. I appreciate your interest and the information you gave. I also found out a little more information about Saint Mary at the Castle, which I will post presently.
Concerning the nationality of Jesus, he is Saviour of all national peoples, and in fact, there is not one person who speaks on Earth, who doesn't speak a mother-tongue, i.e. at least one language. This means that there is no person who actually lives outside of a nation, population or country, however dfined. Lown-goers don't really exist, but some people might illude themselves into being a modern type super-man. And there is no-one without some kind of ethnic background, be it to one or more peoples.
Jesus is not the private property of any individual nor of any one Nation.
I'll post my last findings and quite frankly I'm fed upo with some provocative comments that prop up, but heartily thank those who did participate in a friendly way.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
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I went into Dover Museum on Saturday 10th April and was stunned to find the following information on Saint Mary at the Castle: the first king of Britain, Lucius, embraced the Christian Faith and built a chapel on Eastern Heights next to the Light-tower, which later became the Church that we see now! As he was king, this must have come about when Britain was independent from Rome, and prior to the Anglo-Saxon settlements in Britain.
After the Anglos-Saxons came, a king of Kent made this chapel into a college for the secular canons around 630, after his father, the previous king of Kent, had embraced the Christian Faith at the end of the sixth century!
This goes further than what I had been writing before on this posting: the first Church in BRITAIN was founded in Dover, next to the Roman Light-tower on Eastern Heights, before the Saxons came!
It confirms what I wrote about the Christian Faith returning to the shores of Kent. In 597, the king got Saint Augustin over to Canterbury, where Christianity was re-introduced into our County, and the king's son later made the chapel next to the Light-tower in Dover into an important centre of the Faith! And Christianity spread all through England.
We should give thought to our unique Heritage. This would certainly find a worthy answer in rebuilding Christchurch within the Court! It would be reason to bring our traditionally different Christian congregations in Dover into one House.
A renewed hope came to me in Dover Museum! I knew Our Fair Lady wouldn't give up!
Furthermore, king Lucius introduced port tolls to endow the chapel at the light-tower. This must have come from Our Fair Lady!
Sorry to dampen your zeal Alexander but:
"Saint Lucius is a legendary 2nd-century King of the Britons traditionally credited with introducing Christianity into Britain. Lucius is first mentioned in a 6th-century version of the Liber Pontificalis, which says that he sent a letter to Pope Eleuterus asking to be made a Christian. The story became widespread after it was repeated by Bede, who added the detail that after Eleuterus granted Lucius' request, the Britons followed their king in conversion and maintained the Christian faith until the Diocletianic Persecution of 303. Later writers expanded the legend, giving accounts of missionary activity under Lucius and attributing to him the foundation of certain churches.[1]
There is no contemporary evidence for a king of this name, and modern scholars believe that his appearance in the Liber Pontificalis is the result of a scribal error."
Legend lacking evidence. You might want to have a rethink.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
next thing you will be saying is that batman is just a legend.
i thought that in the second century that we were just tribal and that there was no britain/briton.
no doubt that egghead scotchie will put us right.
I think by 2nd Century we were already being referred to as Britannia - Roman fleet was Classis Britannica a bit later. Emperor Claudius called one of his sons Britannicus I suppose in honour of his "victory". (I think he popped off in AD40 something).
But I am sorry Alexander you have no proof that SM in C was first church in Britain - only that it was very early.
And I still do not understand why you want to rebuild Christchurch when there are several perfectly good (and ancient) churches extant in Dover.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Well again thanks for taking part. Howard, Britain exists byname of its inhabitants prior to the Roman Empire! The inhabitants being called by their own Celtic name, which the Greeks of Merseille put in their vocabulary as Britanni (plural of Britannos). These Greeks had trade relations with the Gauls of modern France, who in turn had relations with the Britons, hence the Greeks got to know about us. The Romans, when making an alliance with Merseille probably some time in the second or third century B.C., got to know about the Britanni from these Greeks.
Hence the Latin name Britanni, which is also the plural, comes directly from the Greek, which in turn comes from the Britons of Britain. The name Britannia for our then Country is as much the Greek pronounciation as the Latin.
True, Howard, the Britains lived as tribes, but it may well be that some important tribes had a king, who would have been recognised as such by Rome, obviously on the grounds that he was an ally, or client king. There were many such local of provinces in the Roman Empire in the earlier periods.
May-be Britain was not independent in the time of a certain king Lucius, but at any rate he would haver been a client king. But, please, can I state, to deny that any such British personality existed then, is paramount to denying that anyone ever existed! Don't you think you are going a little far, Sid! After all, Christianity DID come to Britain before the Saxons, was quite wide-spread, and there IS a Roman Light-tower on Eastern Heights, and as Diana rightly points out, we didinherit from Rome the Classis Britannica, which was based in Dovr.
Some facts of history, Sid, can not be a legend, no matter how hard yutry!
Dover is a very good candidate town for being the place were a certain king Lucius built his first Christian church. I think you might be in the position of having to prove the opposite, that we have never had anything to do with the Roman Empire, that Christianity never came to the Britons, that everything is just a colossal myth. But still, thanks for the information, which I also had come across.
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 1,214
Not to forget that there were two Pharos lighthouse/signaling stations in Dover, the other being up on the Western Heights and sadly virtually demolished when the Drop Redoubt was built. Even if there was a hint of truth to the earliest church establishing story (which I doubt), there are still two lighthouses.
Alexander is right that during the early stages of Roman occupation, client kings or rather tribal chiefs were tolerated if they remained loyal. Some such as Cogidubnus and Prasutagus were even rewarded with large villa complexes - the aforementioned Cogidubnus had the large villa at Fishbourne in West Sussex. It is not therefore inconceivable that that there was a client king in Kent called Lucius.
However, the first reference to Lucius is in a 6th century source reciting the history of the Popes, a good few hundred years after Lucius is supposed to have existed. The Anglo-Saxon historian Bede repeats the tale and Geoffrey of Monmouth in the 12th century. Unfortunately there is simply no archaeological, numismatic or epigraphical evidence of the existence of a second century King Lucius in Britain. Even the earliest reference to him in the 6th century is believed to be a mistake and in fact a reference to a King in Mesopotamia also called Lucius.
Sorry, but I just don't go for it...
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Well alright, Phil, thanks, but can you answer just one question of mine then? Do you accept as historical fact that Christianity did come to Britain prior to the Anglo-Saxon settlements of the fifth century? Were the Britons yes or know Christians?
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
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Sorry, I meant: yes or no, Christians
Guest 644- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
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To the question of whether Christianity entered Britain during the Roman period, yes absolutely. Most evidence comes from the later third and fourth centuries.
The mosaics at the villas at Hinton St. Mary, Lullingstone and elsewhere depict Christian iconography such a the Chi-Rho monogram and pomegranates, a symbol of eternal life. Rare Roman burials are interpreted as Christian and the Walter Newton treasure consists of silver plate with Christian symbolism.
There certainly was a Christian presence in late Roman Britain, but it is impossible to know how widespread or accepted it was. It probably to some extent depended on the beliefs of the Emperor at the time as to how outwardly popular it was. Even so, the Romans were remarkably tolerant of various religions in their different forms and worship of various belief systems throughout the Empire were pretty much accepted. Christianity, Mithraism and paganism probably co-existed happily in later Roman Britain. There was even a temple of Isis from Egyptian mythology in London.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
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The next question is, after establishing that Christianity did come to Britain during the period of the Roman Empire: Is it possible, or feasible, that Christianity came through Dover, where two Roman light-towers stood overlooking the Sea, and the Classis Britannica was based? Dover being the nearest and major seaport to Gaul and the continent.
If the answer is affirmative, then the title given to this posting remains: Once, For Ever! Which is why Christianity returned to Britain through Kent, when the Kentish king, at the end of the sixth century, got Saint Augustin over to Canterbury. And then spread all through England!
So, Phil, anyone participating, can you answer the above question...?
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
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Alex
Yes I can answer the question it was my fellow kinsmen from Poland who came over here to spread Christianity but missed St Augustin and turned left and proceeded up the newly constructed Roman road named Augustin Twenty-us and headed for London and Soho they were driving tractors and trying to earn a crust but fuelled by good old Polish vodka they contributed to the chancellors tax coffers.For a self professed Christian you have a strange outlook on life.
I'm sure you can understand this drivel as you appear to be fluent in it!.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Thh fact that it came in via Kent was a matter of geography more than anything else, being the shortest sea route from the continent and all that.....
Been nice knowing you :)
Come now, Marek. You should know that they took the Atwoicus as being the most direct route!
PS It was not only the inhabitants of this country who were known as Brythons. The term also applied to those people living in what is now called Brittany. Ta-da!
