Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
When you think you have about 4 miles of moats, which is 8 miles of 30ft high walls, with limited access to a lot of it, 250 acres as a whole, several forts, 10s if not 100s of millions of bricks, dozens of homes, several businesses, a 'prison', numerous owners and most of the heritage over 150 years old, there really isn't anywhere else in the country with the scale and complexity of the Western Heights !!!!
You can fit Dover Castle into the Heights 4 or 5 times over, but the maintenance budget outside of the prison area is a BIG FAT ZERO........ puts it all into perspective and probably something a lot of people would even consider
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
I think EH are probably frightened of the size and complexity of the site. Fingers in ears and chanting 'la-la-la', they just want it to go away.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Yes probably some of that, but also embarrassment about what they should have done since the assets were taken over from the Ministry of Works...... they need to forget the past and what should have been done, and move forwards with what can be done.....
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
In my representation to the Department for Transport on the DHB submission, I gave some examples of needed regeneration in Dover.
Among these I mentioned the Scheduled Ancient Monument on Western Heights.
The intention in this part of the representation was to give a view of Dover's reality to people far away making an important decision for Dover.
In this sense, the Western Heights situation has been presented in London in relation to regeneration and how it could be funded.
Now that the 27th has passed, thought of mentioning it on this thread.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
It is truly awful that EH own and therefore are responsible, for such a site and put nothing into it, not even support or consideration for the CGI proposals.
Without some change in thinking, there won't be any Scheduled Ancient Monuments to look after in a few years time.
You can all see how hard Paul and the other volunteers work and the battle they have, not just against nature, which is bad enough, but against yobs and hooligans, bent on destruction. They must feel at times that they are not winning.
People need to wake up and smell the coffee (awful expression I know) and realise that without financial intervention and a return on that, by way of a compromise on building houses, it will all disappear.
Roger
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
So what conclusion have you come to on the grafitti then Alexander?
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 764- Registered: 27 Jul 2012
- Posts: 82
Spot on, Roger.
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,895
Western Heights would have been a great project for the Restoration programme that was on TV some time ago, BBC2 if I remember. Could Time Team be persuaded to show an interest or is there little that is new likely to be found, the media interest might shame EH to pull their finger out of wherever they have it and put their hands in their proverbial pocket.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Unfortunately Time Team are really only interested in the 'unknown' and there is so much documentation on the Heights there really is little that could be discovered
(St James's with it's potential would make an interesting site though with it's Roman Quay potential)
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, I came to the conclusion that the graffiti in the Scheduled Ancient Monument must go. Of-course it is difficult getting it off brickwork, impossible to remove it from cement (you can only paint over cement, or add new cement), and extremely annoying removing it from metal, such as doors.
Having past experience of furniture renovation, I know paint can be removed more easily from wood, but even that takes a lot of time and a number of applications before the results are there.
Once graffiti were to be removed from the Heights' infrastructure, it is paramount to make sure no-one goes back and sprays more stuff on the walls, so wardens will be necessary.
Quite clearly, one can't expect visitors to enter areas such as those that Phil has highlighted, so we have to start with the graffiti aspect and the need to prevent more of it appearing.
Your idea of clearing bushes and trees from the entrances and from the brickwork is fine, as not only would it offer less concealment to sprayers, but would also prevent the roots from dislodging the bricks.
It must be said, all this is not work I would recommend as volunteer work, it's not something which could be done on the odd weekend in an improvised fashion, but would need days and days of dire effort just to get ONE wall clean, and that with a number of people working on it.
Removing graffiti also requires an expert with knowledge of how to go about it, and I have no experience in this aspect. I think for bricks you need a a compressor and high-pressure steam pump; they will look new, but this will also alter their original "ancient monument" look.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
all well and good alex, who would pay the wardens to patrol and the professionals to do the cleaning and removing of graffiti?
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Again- Alexander you really have no ideas on how to care for an scheduled ancient monument, and how these wardens will be paid for, how this expert graffiti removal professionals will be paid for, the logistics of having limited access to the damaged area, etc, etc
You still seem more than happy to shout from the sidelines, but as I said before how about actually getting your hands dirty and doing something to help???? You don't seem very keen to come along and help at a work part with us nor with WCCP.
It has taken 12 years of WHPS getting up for their a***s and going a lot of hard graft to get to where it is now......
Been nice knowing you :)
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
This is the next phase, Howard.
First, we need to present a work-programme, so that the funding authority know what would be done with the money and have an idea how much it would cost.
The next part of the presentation of the work-programme would involve resetting loose bricks, in particular those that risk falling from a high location, and repairing illegal entrance holes that have been made within the brickwork.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, as mentioned above in my reply to Howard, the funding is the next phase, but first there must be a work-programme to show which work needs doing.
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Sometimes this thread is better than a comedy - you really have no idea how to manage a Scheduled Ancient Monument !!!!
Resetting a brick - scheduled monument consent, method statements, risk assessments, specialist contractors who can work on lime mortar, cherry pickers or scaffolding, security so your tools aren't nicked every week (like EH suffered), etc, etc, etc
You really think that WHPS sit back with their feet up and it all comes easy !!!!!!!!!!!!! Do you not think they look at such projects? Do you know the efforts just to get permission for some eye-loops to hang temporary lighting?
Do you know how you get grant funding? You need a large percentage of match funding (10% or 20% or 50%), where does that come from in your grand scheme?
If you want to progress your grand scheme, why not get involved with people who are actually working on these sort of thing already?????
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
paul
can i ask you again to say who you are referring to when making a post that is not a general one?
Guest 651- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 5,673
Replying to the the previous message in the thread ! Unsurprisingly it refers to Alexander's 'oh how simple it all is' messages #1513 and #1514
Been nice knowing you :)
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
i will have to assume that was meant for me paul, manners maketh the man and cost
nothing.
Guest 764- Registered: 27 Jul 2012
- Posts: 82
Alex has some good Points. The graffiti must be dealt with and so must the decaying, often dangerous brickwork. I've said since 1991, and others have agreed that the best way to deter vandalism and other unsocial behaviour on the Heights would be to open up the ditches so there were no hiding places.
The problem with these proposals or suggestions, sterling stuff that they are, is that there is no money. The WHPS (myself included) have spent many hours cutting foliage back, as has the also-underfunded WCCP. It is at the worst a losing battle, at best an almost depressing undertaking for any volunteer force.
That's not to mention the miles of 'red tape' involved with permanent works, ie, pointing bricks.
Which brings us back nicely to the main subject (I think!) of this thread:
A Blanket No lets the status quo carry on ad-infinitum, whereas a 'suck it and see' approach potentially raises all kinds of possibilities !
Thank you for your attention.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Paul, I am aware that any work on Western Heights needs the consent of the owners: English Heritage, DDC or whichever other authority owns the premises one intends working on.
Any work needs to be carried out under the direction of a qualified person, with adapt tools. The work must be in compliance with health and safety rules.
Having experience in gardening, I know that roots need to be removed from the vicinity of brickwork, and that the easiest way of doing this is periodically cutting growth before roots can establish.
Once roots have established, it is much more work pulling them out, alas it needs be done to prevent them gradually dislodging the masonry.
Roots that have already grown between bricks are a specific problem: they need cutting to the brick surface, and then the decision must be made, whether to remove a number of bricks to displace the root that has grown between them, to then replace the bricks, or to let the root rot between the (slightly dislodged) bricks.
In this latter case one must remember that the root will continue to sprout growth, which would occasionally need cutting till the root is dried out, or one lays a coat of mortar over the root to suffocate it.
A qualified person will no which is better.
To cut growth at the top of a moat, at the edge of the precipice, is extremely dangerous. it can be done using very high scaffolding, or from the top, but with the use of a safety belt that must be attached to some firm point.
Again, only an expert can give such instructions.
The actual cutting of bushes and trees is straight forward, with hand-saws, and, in the case of large trees, with a mechanic saw (but to avoid using them is better). For bushes and small trees, just stick to hand-saws.
One needs adequate clothing and gloves, and it's necessary to keep a lookout for snakes in such areas before reaching out one's hand in uncharted territory.
Similarly, removing graffiti requires its own set of regulations, as does repainting rusty doors and railings.
My point is, Paul, any funding would require a basic work plan to be first presented, possibly indicating who the qualified people are who'd be prepared to direct the works and supply the tools, and the assurance that those working under their guidance are reliable, understand English, are in a position to comprehend and carry out instructions, and are physically fit, that they will be provided for with the right clothing and equipment, and will know what they are doing.
Unless there is this basic premise of plan, no consent and no funding will ever be given.
The Western Heights residents group have already stated their intention to hold a meeting with people willing to take part, including WHPS, and have asked that DDC present all requests they have made for funding of maintenance of the Heights, so that any further clues as to who could be contacted for funding can be put into practice by way of an application.
Perhaps Roger, who is a DDC Councillor and looks in on this thread, could ask DDC to take up this point with the Western Heights group, or could contact Lara about this, as she did bring this point up at the last meeting and did mention it recently on this thread.
Unless we know exactly WHO DDC have contacted for funds, we can't really say that all avenues have been explored, can we!
In response to a previous question of yours, Paul, about a visitors centre and community centre on Western Heights, the proposals came from the W.H. group, and so I am sure you could ask them for further details.