Yesterday Friday an indecent happened outside the RSPCA shop Dover and it took police 1 Hour to get there, a young man had stolen an iphone from the new computer shop in dover ran off and was chased by a who member of staff who caught him out side the rspca shop the guy tried to make a break and ran into the shop window so the guy was pulled to the ground and was sat on for that hour, two plain cloths officers appeared saying its no good running when your full of Christmas Dinner we were at are Christmas Party.
No PCSOs were seen in that hour so were they having there party as well.
And to take 1 hour to get a car to some think like that is disgusting but they will have a lot of bull saying they were dealing with something else were
Kent police are the worst in the country.
Also yesterday I found some stuff in a drum which could be dangerous when I phoned I was told the Earliest they can get to me is 8 am Saturday morning if that had been left out kids could have messed with it and who knows what might have happened .
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
I suppose one has to begin by praising the efforts and tenacity of the shop assistant. For it is only right to have in ones mind the knowledge and determination that right is right and wrongdoings have to stop somewhere and having those thoughts and being faced with wrongdoing on ones own doorstep, it is only right that one should act.
The fleeting thought that the miscreant could have been marched off to the local Police station toot-sweet lends the situation some sense of perspective. The Police station would have been closed.
Perhaps lessons could be learned.
Next time...
-rely on the stores CCTV
Well, really. That's about it. All other notions that spring to mind are mere alternatives to what actually did happen...
-chase, catch and retrieve item and return alone to the store
For a salesperson to be away from the store for over an hour, to leave the store undermanned for that time, security-wise. Are just two good reasons for acting differently. I hope that he can make-up his lost sales-bonus.
The assistant did act in an entirely righteous fashion on the solely human level, but, to my mind, he sought too hard to get personal satisfaction. It would have been enough to retrieve the item and to let the other cards fall as they may.
It was wrong, as you suggest Alan, to leave the town un-policed due to feasting. I don't suppose they could have ran after somebody who had committed a far more serious crime either.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,706
Well done to the shop assistant but as Tom says in the bigger picture ....
Sadly Kent Police are no better or for that matter worse than most forces in this part of the country, thankfully we do not have the Met ...
The truth probably is that some officers were having an Xmas party, some would have been dealing with other incidents and shop lifting/minor theft is very low on most if not all police forces priorities.
"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
Sends a message, doesn't it? At this time of year especially.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
If I had seen a shop assistant sitting on a man in the street, I dare say I'd have phoned the Police and asked if I should release him!
The shop assistant probably broke a series of laws and may well be in court himself. Disgusting!
Not if the guy under those buttocks had nicked stuff from said buttocks shop! Citizens arrest and all that.......
Jan Higgins
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
re #5
How else was the shop assistant supposed to restrain a THIEF for an hour, hold his hand and tell him to stay put. I suppose you would have let the THIEF run off again with his stolen goods.
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 700- Registered: 11 Jun 2010
- Posts: 2,868
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Lincolnshire Born and Bred
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it is a grey area, alex makes a valid point.
i can remember a shop keeper being charged with false imprisonment in similar circumstances.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
A shop assistant inside the shop may not necessarily be allowed to effect an arrest even on the premises, let alone chase someone down the street, fling the person against a shop window after retrieving the item, and then holding them on the icy ground in Winter for an hour.
Or does anyone believe any person would voluntarily run against a shop window? He was flung against it after trying to run off without the item, after it had been retrieved, most probably.
A security guard in a shop, who is trained, wouldn't be allowed to do half of all that!
We're not just talking here of retrieving an item, but of someone going far beyond their duty and beyond reasonable reaction.
Nothing to do with self-defence either.
As said, I'd have dialed 999 immediately and denounced the shop assistant.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Tell me where your shop is, Alex. I shall then come and help myself.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
I did try and post a link but couldnt so sorry for the ammount of text but this is a really good explaination of the "powers" of a citizens arrest .
A citizen's arrest (officially called an "any person arrest") is permitted to be made on any person under section 24A of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 for an indictable offence, including either way offences (in this section referred to simply as "an offence"), but excluding certain specific ones listed below. It is thus permissible for any person to arrest:
Anyone who is in the act of committing an offence, or whom the arrestor has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be in the act of committing an offence, or
Where an offence has been committed, anyone who is guilty of that offence or whom the arrestor has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of it
In order for the arrest to be lawful, the following two conditions must also be satisfied:
It appears to the person making the arrest that it is not reasonably practicable for a constable to make the arrest instead
The arrestor has reasonable grounds for believing that the arrest is necessary to prevent one of the following:
The person causing physical injury to himself or others
The person suffering physical injury
The person causing loss of or damage to property
The person absconding before a constable can assume responsibility for him
Use of the second power above is rather risky, since it relies upon the person carrying out the arrest knowing that an offence has been committed, of which in itself needs to be indictable or either way offence. The Act therefore gives a constable additional powers under section 24 to arrest the following:
Anyone who is (without doubt) about to commit an offence, or whom the constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be about to commit an offence
Anyone whom the constable has reasonable grounds for suspecting to be guilty of an offence which is merely suspected to have taken place
N.B. 'Any person' powers can be used to arrest before an offence occurs as long as the offence in question falls within the Criminal Attempts Act 1981. This act creates the offence of an attempted offence, as long as the offence being attempted is an indictable one. For this to apply, the offence must actually be in the process of being attempted - preparatory steps are not sufficient. For example, putting gloves on to smash a car window would not suffice, but the throwing of a brick at the window would.
A constable's arrest power is not limited to indictable offences, and conditions different from the above apply.
However, a citizen's arrest cannot be made:
inside a polling station, on a person who commits or is suspected of committing an offence of personation under article 30 of the National Assembly for Wales (Representation of the People) Order 2007,[24]
inside a polling station, on a person who commits or is suspected of committing an offence of personation under section 60 of the Representation of the People Act 1983[25]
in relation to an offence of stirring up racial hatred under Part 3 or stirring up religious hatred under Part 3A of the Public Order Act 1986.[26]
In addition to the above, a private person may be authorised to execute an arrest warrant, if the court issuing the warrant has given them the authority to do so.
[edit] Other powersA person may arrest an individual/individuals to prevent an occurring, repeated or a breach of the peace about to occur. This offence definition and power of arrest are contained under the common law definition of 'breach of the peace'.
Well said Peter
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
That's helpful, Sarah, and will certainly provide some context to the topic.
The phrase: "The person suffering physical injury" is quite important, because the arrestor could effect an arrest to prevent a person suffering physical injury, among other things.
In the case concerned, I believe the arrestor may have caused physical injury after retireving the item. To hold someone to the ground for an hour, sitting on them, for something so trivial, does not come under effecting an arrest.
Suppose that person suffered heart failure?
Trivial is a matter of context , what ammount of loss is worthy of intervention , or is it proportionate to the means of the victim ?
Who is the judge ?
On what basis is one persons loss assesed as being more worthy than anothers ?
Jan Higgins- Location: Dover
- Registered: 5 Jul 2010
- Posts: 13,888
For the benefit of Alex who has his priorities all wrong.
"the guy tried to make a break and ran into the shop window so the guy was pulled to the ground"
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I try to be neutral and polite but it is hard and getting even more difficult at times.
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Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Peter, you have completely mixed up two very different things: one is to prevent a theft, another thing is to have prevented it, and then to cause physical injury to the person.
I wouldn't sit on a person for an hour for something so stupid even if I were paid to.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
"My granny died today, she was knocked down on the pavement by a shop assistant chasing a thief."
"My wife had a miscarriage today, she was knocked down..."
"My daughter is in a serious condition, she was knocked through a shop window today by..."
"My son, a shop assistant, was arrested today because the thief he caught has died from his injuries. Apparently he was an asthmatic and through being held down on the cold pavement..."
Whatever might have happened, whatever did happen; a phone is just a thing. People are people.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Without the actions of the person who is reported as having taken the goods none of this would have needed to have happened , dont blame the victim or present the offender as some sort of Martyr .
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Jan, the item had been recovered. To register the identity of the person by noting their clothes and appearence would have sufficed. The Police would normally do the rest.
To have pulled him to the ground after taking back the ipad is not an arrest. The Police would not do that other than with a person involved in committing violence and resisting an arrest.
This shop assistant is not a police person.
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