Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I think we can see just why this Government has been such a failure from just one exchange on the radio today. Government Ministers simply do not understand, or take the trouble to understand their brief. I am being generous because there is another explanation, they are deliberately trying to misrepresent and lie about their own figures.
Look at this transcript from the radio interview (acknowledgment to Spectator Coffee House for this)
The interviewee is Immigration Minister Phil Woolas and the interviewer is Andrew Neil.
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PW: I think that the Spectator's analysis, perhaps not surprisingly, is confusing two completely separate things
AN: These are Office of National Statistics figures which we checked this morning. Do you accept that there are 1.7 million new jobs for people of working age between 16 and 64, correct?
PW: Yes
AN: And according to the Labour Force Survey, compiled by the Office of National Statistics. 1.67 million jobs went to foreign born workers
PW: That's not what they say. What they say is there have been 1.67million immigrant workers - immigrant workers are temporary workers - so what you're doing is conflating temporary workers, the total over 13 years, with permanent workers, and because it's similar to the new jobs created, you are taking a false logical step. This is an old trick that has been played in every election since 1964. And what it is saying is that the number of temporary immigrant workers is the same as the total number of new jobs. That is logically not true. It cannot be arithmetically true. It's like saying that 50,000 people go to watch Arsenal every match, there have been ten matches; therefore 500,000 people have been. In fact, it may be that the same 50,000 people have. And that is the statistical trick that is being pulled on you.'
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Using Woolas anology and to cut through the guff, the number of immigrants used in the survey is more equivilent to the 50,000 actually in the Arsenal Stadium at any one time.
I find it quite staggering that Government Ministers cannot get a proper grip on their brief. I dont think I have seen anything so incompetent (of foolishly deceitful) in all my time observing or participating in politics and that really is saying something.
You can read more detail and a better explanation of the sheer hash Woolas has made here.
http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/5898483/woolas-on-the-rack.thtmlBarryW, I must be mising something, because despite the fact this government has made a complete cods of immigration and (un)employment, what PW says actually makes sense. Help me out here please if you can.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
yes Sid, if you go to the link there is an excellent explanation.
Woolas simply did not understand his own immigration statistics. There was no double counting in the sense of his Arsenal Stadium explanation. If the immigrants counted had gone home then they would not have been included in the figures.
Put simply 99% of jobs created over the last 13 years have gone to immigrants and not the British unemployed.
The official figures: 1.7m new jobs of which 1.67m went to immigrants since 1997.
For once I can say something good about the EU as if it was not for them these figures would not be available. They have been collated based on EU instructions and methodology so could not be fiddled by the Government.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
this subject brought a big howler from the PM yesterday in the commons.
in an exchange with his opposite number he stated that immigration was great for UK business.
no mention of our communities that suffer from shortage of housing, overcrowded schools, endless waiting lists at gp and dental sugeries, overworked hospitals and many other things.
the sad thing is that the other two main parties support this fully.
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Could someone please answer what type jobs went to these 'immigrants'? Could it be that the Jeremy Kyle type generation couldn't be bothered to get off their arses!!
I am afraid that blaming all immigrants for our decline is not acceptable, in fact had it not been for these workers our agricultural and manual industries would be in a worse position.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
You got that wrong Marek, no-one is blaming immigrants the blame rests firmly on Government.
1/ My post was about the sheer ignorance of a particular Labour Minister who does not understand his brief and the statistics produced by his own department.
2/ Brown's boast about british jobs for British workers, remember that? These statistics show the real picture.
3/ It is not the fault of the immigrants that we have a Government that has tried, as an act of deliberate policy, to change British culture through immigration.
4/ Remember flood the country with cheap unskilled labour to fulfil the agriculatural and manual jobs and you keep wages down (this is why they needed the minimum wage). If it was not for Labour's immigration policy then there would be a market demand for labour from the indiginous population that would drive up wages making such jobs more desirable to the unskilled. A natural reaction of the market.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
nobody is blaming the immigrants, just the politicians.
marek
i am sure that you know that big construction projects employ overseas agencies to get staff on that countries minimum wage.
most of these projects are in areas of high unemployment and that skilled workers do not get a chance to apply for these jobs.
If I might add to the thoughts of Barry and Howard. There are some nationalities that are above negative thoughts when it comes to them being in the UK. I think I am right in saying the British public have no qualms about Nepalese (Ghurkas) or Poles being here. In fact, almost every Britain would take ten poles or Nepalese over 1 Frenchman, or loud-mouthed Aussie. Of course it is a military thing; those two nationalities have stood shoulder to shoulder with our own fighting men, dying withem if necessary, and are thoroughly deserving of 'special' consideration.
For the rest of Europe/Europeans, well, least said the better quite frankly.
Oh, and by the way, in case there is any doubt, I happily confess to being a chauvenistic patriot
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
sid
i doubt if the immigration issue is a racial or nationality thing, except to extremist politicians.
the public in general are totally fed up with being ignored by the authorities over issues that i mentioned in post 4.
Marek: I do know that a great many hospital employees and nursing/residential homes rely on immigrant workers. Even four years ago when I was still working we employed a great many ghurka wives, as well as philippinos and very often people from Zimbabwe. This is because yes, they are quite poorly paid jobs which British people often did not want to take. When I spent quite a long time in hospital I noticed that many nurses were foreign nationals, not only Indians but also Eastern Europeans, also cleaning staff.
I have noticed quite a few people with different accents (canadian, eastern european, etc) working in Boots on the prescription counter as well.
Blame - why does it have to come to that? Problem: solution. Challenge:options.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Surely (legal) immigration should only be for skilled labour and those who can speak/understand English.
If we need unskilled labour there's plenty of lazy people on benefits - and I'm emphasising lazy/don't want to work people, not those who can't work for a range of genuine reasons.
This would also help reduce the enormous welfare/benefits bill we have.
Roger
Guest 645- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,463
Roger
There is already a points system for 'legal' skilled immigrants.The problem lies with illegal immigration,clandestine entry,false or forged passports and visas obtained by deception.All these people fall into the illegal immigration loophole.
Also as a member of the EU there is a free movement of nationals(subject to their suitability) and it's these people that are rightly taking up the jobs that Brits won't do.
How we get the 'bone idle' to work is another problem.We need to start thinking outside the box,ie all school leavers should not be allowed to go straight on the rock on roll but should have govt guidance towards courses, further education,community sponsored projects but they need to be put into a work enviroment asap.We cannot afford to abandon our young and the future generation.
Try getting Dovers youth to pick potatoes or cut flowers or till the land and see how far one gets. Immigration control which is firm but fair and without prejudice to race ,creed,colour or religion has to be welcomed.Pump more money into Border Control to ensure we have the best service in the world.
Marek
I think therefore I am (not a Tory supporter)
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
well thats going to be difficult marek 12 immigration jobs are disserpering from dover on the grounds of costing to much,they are being replaced by acting immigration officers being paid at a lower rate.hence saving money?.so there you have it,so how safe are our borders if consecative goverments cut back on ecentails sevices.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The immigration manpower cuts are Labour cuts Brian. Its Labour who have allowed immigraton to be excessive and have demonstrated a dont care less attittude to the subject as reflected in Labour's cuts. I would be very surprised if the Conservative cuts dont have a very different set of priorities.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Good posting Marek - very sensible.
As Barry says these immigration staff cuts are cuts by the Labour Government Brian, no one else.
Do you think these staff cuts will work out cheaper when we'll end up with hundreds or thousands, maybe even hundreds of thousands of illegals coming in, just to save the Government a few pounds on staff wages ? Sounds mad to me.
Why do you keep voting for a Government that is so obviously hopeless.
Roger
In addition, it is my experience that temp or agency/acting whatever don't have the same committment or drive, end up off sick/awol/leaving and having to be covered by more expensive agency/interim staff and lacking the expertise needed.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
roger
people look at the alternative to the government, not everyone is covinced that the blues are a better choice.
you mention the goverment cutting staff to save money, only today your party announced their" efficiency saving measures.
analysts say that this could cost 40,000 public sector jobs, not much difference is there?
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barryw/roger what makes you think i vote labour.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
brian
barry and roger think that everyone that does not vote for their party is a socialist.