Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
GaryC wrote:BarryW.
A fact
Derived from the Latin factum, is something that has really occurred or is actually the case.
The fact.
We chose to defend our communities and fight to stop the closure of the Kent Coalfield.
The fact is not open to your interpretation.
Whether that was a right or wrong decision, is open to opinion.
You stated
"If they really cared so much about their community and their jobs they should have been more sensible and moderate.
Was Thatcher sensible and moderate with us?
Nottingham chose to trust her, are their pits open now?
You also stated.
"As I said - they did not really care about their community"
If you really believe that, then perhaps you would like to go to Aylesham's Heritage Centre any Wednesday morning and repeat that statement, to some of finest men I know?
Your problem here GaryC is that the strikers lost all moral and legal authority and, indeed lost the strike, when Scargill used regional instead of national ballots and then relied on bullying and intimidation to force the moderate areas out on strike.
On that basis it is reasonable to assert that it was the working miners who were fighting for their communities, not the strikers. They also had the moral and legal high ground.
Mrs T was absolutely right in all she did. As national leader she gave the leadership needed to win this fight in the national interest, defend law and order and the right of working miners to go to work through the howling mob on the picket line.
Any and all attempts from some people to blame her are absurd. Scargill wanted this fight and was not going to let a mere matter of ballots and the law stop him. Yes, if the strikers cared about their community they would not have allowed themselves to be Scargill's cannon fodder - because that is all they were.
It seems from what you say though they have not learned any lessons and still have the same attitudes that lost them the strike. No-one likes to think they were wrong on such important matters and hanging on to this myth about defending their community must be comforting and is understandable but nevertheless it is a myth.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Incidentally on the mine closure issue and Nottingham - remember Labour closed more mines in the 70's than were closed during Mrs T's government. Mines get closed all the time. It is an occupational hazard. It has been decades since anyone had a job for life - we all have to be flexible to adapt to change including new careers. There was nothing special about miners that should have prevented them from being subject to the same forces. Your communities were bound to change regardless.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Legal aid system sad that it will take a backward step.
It has been said on this forum many times that there was a lot of errors on BOTH sides during this dispute
sadly barryw is to blinkered
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
No Keith. There was no fault on the government side. You have failed in fact to point out any such fault. There is no fault in upholding the rule of law against mob rule which is what it came down to at the end.
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
Barry-I can't believe you just posted that. Of course there were faults on both sides . Rule of Law-The animalistic behaviour of the police for a start speaks volumes...Gary will give good witness here I'm sure.
Never give up...
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Richard - I do not defend any police officer who acted in any way unprofessionally but that is a matter for the individual officers not the government. What cannot be disputed is that the howling violent spitting mob should not have been allowed to win and stop decent working miners from going to work.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
the howling, violent, spitting mob was made up of a mixture of thugs - some supporting scargill, others in police uniform.
local bill were not employed at picket lines as they did not want to take sides.
Guest 705- Registered: 23 Sep 2010
- Posts: 661
Very few striking collieries had a violent howling mob- most were punctuated with peaceful picketing.. Unfortunately the disfunctional elements of the media were there at various locations to promote and encourage agro-just for the cameras.
Never give up...
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
see Richard we can agree
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Blaming the media and trying to spread the blame to those protecting the rights is desperate stuff.
Answer a straight question.
Did you support the rights of miners in those regions that did not vote for a strike to go to work?
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW
Every region voted for a strike and every vote was unanimous to take industrial action.
"Answer a straight question" you are joking yes.
Answer me this one then.
Why did the coal board, under orders from thatcher, order the closure of Corton Wood, in March?
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Source?
Then why no national ballot to make the strike legal and why did the bully boys have to go to moderate regions in force to intimidate them into not working?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
barry you have now lost the plot.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
Source,
I was miner, I was there, I lived it.
I know the facts and how it all evolved.
You just read about it, watched from your armchair and was force fed Bull-hit about it.
The real intimidation was between families torn apart through one member who could not see she was dishing out false promises and those who could see they were about to lose their collieries. Those families were the biggest losers in that battle, they are still torn apart.
We had a National Ballot prior to the strike and it was quashed in the high courts, which is what would have happened again if we had one.
Question not answered. "Why did the coal board, under orders from thatcher, order the closure of Corton Wood, in March?"
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I do not know the answer to that question GaryC and it does not matter. Indeed as you will know Labour closed more mines than Mrs T and Scargill was desperate for a confrontation for political reasons.
As for ballots etc - sorry, not personal, but to say you were a miner is not good enough as a source.
Perhaps you should explain why the union was unable to hold a legal national strike ballot. Surly it is not rocket science to obey the laws. Many unions have held legal ballots after all.
Yes I did watch those disgraceful scenes on TV. The thuggery, bullying and rioting. I also know some of the police officers who did their duty protecting the rights of miners to go to work and they have told me what they were subjected to by those picket line thugs. I have also met some of the working miners too.
You all have your stories to tell.
My confidence and full support goes to the police and the working miners as did most people in this country. I utterly abhore what your side of that dispute did. I must add, I do not defend individual police officers who behaved improperly or working miners who retaliated.
But at the end of the day none of that would have happened if your lot did not go out on that illegal strike and try intimidation tactics against those who worked
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
tosh barryw total tosh
garyc continues to give you the facts as they happened.
he was heavily involved and hes not bothered about the tit for tat way you look at it
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Well Keith - we can go on like this forever but, at the end of the day, the right side won the dispute, the rule of law was upheld and we are all far better off as a result.
The Unions no longer have the power to destroy whole industries and only really have a hold in the public sector. They are thankfully a shadow of what they were and the result of the mining strike was a large part of bringing these despots down to size.
There is still some work to do, the job is not finished yet but this country is a better place than it was when the unions ran rampant.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Barryw
you are correct that this will go on for ever and we will never agree
gary c (and others) have tried hard to explain the real situation which of course you have chosen to do an Alexander(lol_)
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Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Not at all...... I have told you the bigger picture, the truth. We are all better off because the unions have been tamed.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
think I will call you alexander 2 lol
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