Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Bullied is the wrong word no one has been buillied .this will go no where in the end.Because the only thing the pblic want to see is the new build of our town, what you are doing will not do that if anything it will slow it up.You might be on a high now but the crash will come later on.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
indeed mr matcham, contrary to what mr shirley says i don't feel bullied into anything.
Guest 1168- Registered: 21 Jan 2014
- Posts: 18
Far from being on high, I could not be more depressed when I see what has been presided over in this town. I really don't mind about what you predict, but I will happily engage with you if you want to make arguments that are based upon something other than apparent clairvoyance. I expect you have lived here much longer than I have and have done everything in your power to improve the lot of the electorate. For my part, I haven't done much. But I am angry and saddened by a decaying town and a dilatory and distant leadership group.
So, what I am trying to achieve is fair and open democracy, intelligent and rational debate, considered argument and councillors and officials who have the humility and good grace to recognise the sheer frustration and disappointment so may people have in their apparent shortcomings. And then to talk to us in an open and honest way. How positive would that be? What an encouragement to potential inwards investors would such openness and honesty be.
Given that, I would be delighted to discuss my approach to engender change and improvement with anyone who can construct a sound and reasonable expression of why the process I have commenced is in any way counter-productive. I have yet to hear such an argument. I have heard predictions and comments like your own which I respect, but you don't make an argument. If you know something we don't upon which you base your predictions please do share. Otherwise I will have to assume that your expressions are as invalid as you indicate my attempts to seek knowledge are.
If we are unable to engage on a basis of factual debate, shall we agree that we are both wasting words on each other?
I think such an outcome would please many.
Alan Shirley
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Who will chair this meeting if it is held?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
According to mr shirley, mr matcham is in pole position.
he can hardly throw himself out.
Guest 1168- Registered: 21 Jan 2014
- Posts: 18
That's a good question Peter. Of course PW knows full well that it is within his powers to construct the minimum offering once we pass 1600 signatures. That is a council meeting in their chamber where the public area is limited to about 30 seats I believe. Then, the petitioner is entitled to speak for 10 mins and the Chairman (Cllr. Nicholas I suppose) can curtail debate after a further 20 mins.
Naturally I am seeking a much more open, informative and inclusive meeting ideally in a better venue. So I have a number of thoughts about who would chair the meeting I seek. In the ideal world it would be a commercially experienced independent who would show neither fear nor favour to any party, probably from out of town. Again ideally, PW would contact me and we would agree a forum shape and style.
Alan Shirley
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Mr Shirley,I have already pointed out to you and others why this meeting is a very bad move.As you said I have been around Dover more then most infact 71years. If you had this a year or two years ago, I would have been the very first to sigh and get up and support you,but that is not the case why did you not get this up before?,why wait till(1) a year away from the local and Gen/Elections.(2)And at the time when Dover has started be it slow to move forward.?
You cannot be thinking that this meeting if it goes ahead will push it along.Because we all know that is not the case.
I feel in some way this is probable for publicity for a p/party. As I and others have said this could even put it back even more.Any change of leadership at this time is a bad move.Talking to me on a one to one will not do anygood I am just a member of the public with no say in it.
Just a point of view I am just a parish cllr with no powers to act .But still if you would like to meet up then so be it ,it will not change anything.Also all the party leaders have sighed up so they will be kicking it around at your meeting ,by siting in the front row or on the stage because they need public votes,you again have Dover MP there he knows that his job is on the line anyway so he will go againts his own party at the district like he has done before trying to get the public behind him just for votes ,the reds and UKIP YELLOWS will all be there trying to get the public to back want they are saying just for votes.As I said this meeting you have called for is very bad timing.And the only thing that could happen is poor old Dover once again will be the loser.
Guest 1168- Registered: 21 Jan 2014
- Posts: 18
Hello everyone. Clair Hawkins, PPC The Labour Party has now also signed.
I really hope that dispels the accusation of political motive that has been levelled at this project as it now has the support of all 4 major parties through their respective parliamentary and prospective parliamentary representatives.
I don't think any councillors at DDC have signed.
Thus far 3 people have expressed their opposition to the petition to my knowledge. I know being in a majority doesn't automatically make something right, but in this case I take the view that the argument for openness and honesty is compelling.
There is simply no down side to sharing knowledge. Public accountability will never prevent quality projects materialising unless there is something to hide. I believe that the people of this District would love to support this Council leadership group but cannot because of their obstinate resolve to be above the people. Just talk to us. Prove that the petitioners are wrong to be suspicious of you.
Alan Shirley
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
The economy of Dover district will only benefit, if the development includes good frontage space for start-up business to run.
The only business to attracted passing sae passengers to stay over, are restaurants pubs & clubs big entertainment venues,
a night time economy at the hart
We need units that people can move into and open these business without draconian licensing law and over taxation.
The Amsterdam injection.
Ps
The architecture needs to reflect the history of old Dover ,,medieval and gothic
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Not so Mr Shirley as I put in my post if one party signed up they all will they follow like sheep. Not much more I can add to this again it is a very wrong move to take.
Guest 1168- Registered: 21 Jan 2014
- Posts: 18
Great news that today the e-petition has gone through the 500 barrier. There are hundreds more on paper petitions and they will be used to update the count on the DDC web-site next week.
I am so satisfied that the malaise and apathy that is so often levelled at Dover residents is becoming increasingly hard to justify. And still, there are many people who are not aware of the petition. We are working hard at extending the reach, especially to Deal and the villages. The East Kent Mercury has now picked up the story and we continue to receive excellent coverage in the Dover Express. So many people are expressing their support, and our sincere thanks to all of those who see value in open governance.
The petition is also raising debate on many more subjects of concern, from EU funding to the Hospital, to the Port, to the need for improved infrastructure, to schools etc. There is a heightened level of concern regarding the contribution that is made to this town by some of our elected representatives at District level. These concerns may or may not be right, but how do we find out?We are right to expect the best level of outcome, which of course can only be achieved by the highest level of effort and skill. Those endeavours, along with outcomes - successful or otherwise - need to be communicated. Re-cycled news and snippets are insufficient.
It is also unacceptable for local government officers to be protected from censure and disciplinary measures through their cocooned existence. The private sector flourishes because it will not accept second best. It is time for Dover to have what it has deserved for decades and to know whether those who work for this town have the calibre to achieve it.
My thanks to everyone who has shown their support in action and deed.
Alan Shirley
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Sorry Mr Shirley so you think you are going to be the saver of Dover then ?and put it all right overnight,sorry but I do not think so.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Thank You Alan.
"The petition is also raising debate on many more subjects of concern, from EU funding to the Hospital, to the Port, to the need for improved infrastructure, to schools etc".
Much of that above, is not the responsibility of Dover District Council.
EU funding is being looked at.
The hospital (now it is being built), is the responsibil;ity of the CCG (Care Commissioning Group)
The Port is owned by DHB and the Government although DDC have given input to the Minister
Improved infrastructure - which particular infrastructure are you talking about Alan ?
Schools are the responsibility of KCC.
I'm not trying to make a cop-out of your statement at all, but pointing out that everything wrong with Dover is not all the fault of DDC.
"There is a heightened level of concern regarding the contribution that is made to this town by some of our elected representatives at District level. These concerns may or may not be right, but how do we find out ?"
District Councillors not only represent their ward and the electorate in that ward, but also the whole District on a range of subjects - planning, scrutiny, transport issues - in conjuction KCC, Licensing and the regulations surrounding that and attending many other meetings, as well as supporting those they represent on a range of topics.
"We are right to expect the best level of outcome, which of course can only be achieved by the highest level of effort and skill. Those endeavours, along with outcomes - successful or otherwise - need to be communicated. Re-cycled news and snippets are insufficient."
The electorate/residents of Dover are indeed entitled to expect the best from their Councillors; some do give more (time and effort) than others and some are more skilled than others, but if the electorate are not happy with their Councillor, they can contact them first and ask what they are doing about such and such and if they are still not happy, change their vote at the next election.
I agree that recycled news and snippets are not sufficient - how would you like the news of things, or information on certain subjects, relayed to you, or should I say, the general public ? We (DDC) have a newsletter, but how many people read it ? It is on the Council's website for all to see/read. If there's different sorts, or types of information you'd like, let me know.
"It is also unacceptable for local government officers to be protected from censure and disciplinary measures through their cocooned existence. The private sector flourishes because it will not accept second best. It is time for Dover to have what it has deserved for decades and to know whether those who work for this town have the calibre to achieve it."
How do you determine whether an Officer of DDC needs to be censured or disciplined Alan ? They are not in a cocoon at all; they all do the best they can, under sometimes, very difficult situations. Please do let me know (by email) particular instances if you have any and I will be happy to follow them up.
Many private sector businesses do flourish, but many do fail too. Councils across the Country are having money taken from them, or perhaps I should say, are receiving much less money from central Government. This makes Councils work much more efficiently than they used to, are much slicker than they used to be and actually, despite your criticism of them Alan, work very hard indeed.
There are many merged/shared services across East Kent; the public sector (at least DDC) is not the cushy job it was once thought of being.
I think that some of your questions about the calibre of those who work for this Town could also be aimed at DTC.
Thanks again Alan.
Roger
Guest 745- Registered: 27 Mar 2012
- Posts: 3,370
Stop the big pensions ,up the working week to 45 hours a week like in the private sector and cut wages at the top .
That would be a start.
Guest 649- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 14,118
Wrong it is 40hrs aweek
Guest 1168- Registered: 21 Jan 2014
- Posts: 18
I have determined that this will be my last posting on this Forum which will no doubt please some. I find the incessant puerile commentary of some beneath sensible debating levels and of others to be so intransigent that, as an intellectual debate, there is no room for progress or purpose. Many of you will accuse me of arrogance, but that is OK by me too.
I wish you all well, those who have agreed with my observations and those who have not.
Maybe I just have it all wrong and Dover is as some of you suggest, in a safe and competent pair of hands. I may leave this site, but I will pursue my attempts to breathe best practise into this district with absolute vigour because, in my view, it clearly is not.
Can whoever administers this database please remove me or advise.
Alan Shirley
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
Mr. Walkden...
I have no interest in party politics, but I am fascinated by your persistant opposition to this petition.
The DDC have a website and a newsletter, but I can say with 99.99% certainty that no bad news or failures are broadcast by these media, and only the upbeat propaganda is released. This is the point of the petition, to get some transparency on issues that people have concerns, because if the public are not told that something has gone wrong, to whatever extent, how can they know whether or not to vote for the individuals who are associated with the failure ?
I sincerely hope that this petition gains a sufficient number of signatures, and I'm sure it will, because the resultant public meeting will be, if nothing else, greatly entertaining, and at most might reveal some deep dark secrets.
Guest 653- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,540
Thank You Barrie.
If you have read my postings on this subject you will know why I am opposed to this petition - at this time. I could argue Barrie that I am surprised at your persistent insistance that the petition continues,when I have made such open and honest postings and my reasons/views for not supporting it - at this time.
I have been open and honest in every posting and have nothing to hide - on this, or any other subject.
Alan, I am sorry you feel you must leave this Forum because I disagree about the timing of this petition. I have replied to each of your postings with openness and given as full answers, as I can.
I am not saying that DDC is perfect - what organisation is ? I do believe though, that the delay in the DTIZ is not the fault of DDC officers.
Roger
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
chatting with a prominent townsperson this week, not a ddc councillor, we both agreed that a similar petition in every part of perfidious albion would have people queuing up to sign.
Guest 1033- Registered: 23 Aug 2013
- Posts: 509
I agree Howard, but a lot of the discontent is about a lack of transparency in government at all levels. Preaching to the converted I'm sure, but a lot of us are very disillusioned with politicians at all levels, and now we seem to have legislation in place to, if not exactly bring them to book, make them start looking over their shoulders and give some respect to the people who have voted them in.
I assume that Mr. Walkden is a politician, apologies for the slur if he is not, but if the general public want something they are entitled to, then his personal opinion about the timing is totally irrelevant, and is just that, an opinion. My opinion is that the timing could hardly be better, and potential investors in Dover will be so pleased to see a law abiding and transparent district council running the area, they will be queueing up to invest. Which is also just an opinion, but the public vote the politicians into power, and its time the politicians started to be seen to have the best interests of the voters at heart.