Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Nothing to do with government and politicians Howard, just real life.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
howard
your posting on the reasons for the forum are very sound and maybe other posters should recognise this.
If we debate the one issue(in this case the NHS) What has happened is a long list of professionals have come out against the reforms so it's not just lay forum members.
With this we have seen differing views on this forum(which is what the forum is supposed to be about)
Because people may disagree doesn't mean they are wrong, or misunderstand, its because they have a different viewpoint.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
I think we are misunderstanding each other. Opinions and different views are what make this forum (and others) great. What some of us are saying is that there is technical terminology - not gobbledegook, but words and phrases that have developed and mean something to professionals in certain roles - that is meaningless to others. In the same way that if a surgeon described his job there would be a huge number of words and phrases that many of us would not recognise. That doesn't stop us having an opinion about surgery but it does mean that the opinion is uninformed and ignorant.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
BERN;
we will just have to agree to disagree
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Keith - once again you seem not to acknowledge the difference between informed and uninformed opinion and facts. We all can take an uninformed view of something but when someone has expert of professional knowledge of a subject then it is strange that some posters simply will not acknowledge that, address the informed points intelligently and, where appropriate, modify their view. Instead the informed view gets ignored and entrenched positions repeated, or as in the case of at least one person, they 'go to ground' and ignore the valid points raised and move on the another different ill-informed comment. We can all be a bit guilty of that at times but some people truly make it an art form.
Howard - I have to laugh at #380 - when you say 'we seem to get it right' - no, not always because if we did we would have been perfectly governed and no government can ever claim that. Least of all the last one, the public can be excused 1997 but public did get it dramatically wrong in 2001 and 2005.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
like you try to say barryw
your misinformed views don't always help
but hey, its part of the bigger picture of a varied amount on forumites
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
I tried not to get too personal Keith... you still just do not get it.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
Regarding 'getting it right', I think 'getting the government we deserve' is probably nearer the mark.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
There is a lot of truth in that Peter... but what on earth did we all do wrong to deserve that 2001-2010 period that has got us into so much manure?...
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
peter;
i do agree with you on governments
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
Some of us may be misinformed, some of us may be disinformed and some of us may be uninformed but having the information available will do more than anything to counter this and to lead to our enlightenment.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
.....or further deepen our confusion?
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
such varied views
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 376.& # 380....agree...the forum`experts`on the NHS regard posters with differing opinions....as ..ignorant,do not
understand,only read the Daily Mirror,do not have the knowledge or skills,are not informed enough to disagree with
them etc,etc................
All the `true` experts in the NHS disagree with the forum `experts`and agree with the forum posters being
ridiculed......
....................talking down to people seems to give pleasure to some..............
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
just to clear up a small point
I don't read or be influenced by any national newspaper
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
394: actually the 'experts' in the NHS are split down the middle. But agreeing with a Government initiative is not newsworthy.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
peter;
nor it appears are oppoosing views on this subject
at end of day its to valuable to get it wrong
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 683- Registered: 11 Feb 2009
- Posts: 1,052
"Information is the currency of democracy".
Thomas Jefferson
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
GP`s are spending less time with patients because they tied up with Clinical commissioning Groups ( CCG`s )
A locum to replace a doctor costs the NHS £ 123,900 pa.
In Dover and elsewhere the PCT`s had the final say on our Health care provision services.............
All that was required was to give the final decision to our GP`s not tie them up with giving them all the work of CCG`s.
Why is it talking down to people when we make them aware that they may not have the whole picture or may be vulnerable to making decisions without the understanding to support those decisions? In fact, I have no problem with the risk register (which is where this all started) being shared. It isn't top secret, it isn't a tool for manipulation, it is a simple project management tool - but because it is specific and is a tool for a specific professional group it could be misinterpreted without the background knowledge to put it into context. So, not talking down. In fact, being told we are being obstructive when all we are trying to do is help could be (mis?)interpreted as unhelpful.