Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
You miss the point Tom.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
If I miss the point, the point must be, that we accept that our economy is there for the milking. A point I have consistently missed.
After all, the UK is known the whole world over as providing Health Care and Education 'free', and all the roads etc. for a paltry sum. Where it all begins to fall down, we are told, is that foolish-we pay for the BBC.
Fortunately, all local services are provided via the rates, so there is little or no need for successful retailers to provide surplus funding that can only go to encourage wastefulness and excess.
Where, in an economy run wholly on the buy-cheap-sell-dear principle, any get the wherewithal to prime the pump - never mind keep it going - is a secret you keep all to yourself Barry. So, so naughty.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Nothing is ever free. In fact it is dangerous for people to think that certain things are 'free'. My own industry was blighted by the concept of 'free advice' that turned out to be far more expensive than openly fee based advice.
Your cynical characterisation is far from reality. I, for instance, frequently choose not to buy 'cheap'. Quality and cheap are very different. The economy and the markets are so much more than you suggest and the big problem we have is the way politician seem to think they can defy economic and market reality. We see this most starkly in the Eurozone and in the UK we can see it in the 1997-2010 period and even now not enough is being done to correct that blight.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Why do people still believe that health and education are free?
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
I did not quite write free, but 'free'.
Why is it in the points you both make, David & Barry, that you hone-in on the "people" who erroneously consider such a term as -free- to mean gratis, and not upon the commercial entities who must consider such as 'gratis'. For they think nothing about trading within our economy in such a way as to abstract money to the exclusion of all tax?
How can they glibly pay no money in and profit from all the work done in Health & Education, unless they consider it a gift of heaven or the job of ethereal 'others' elsewhere in the economy?
Presumably such companies lay great store in the coining of the phrase, "Free, at the point of use." And are free to consider themselves as non-users and therefore free to ignore the costs involved, and any part they might play in offsetting same.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 1569.....just in case you missed it..................
Tax avoidance is not illegal............yet......but public pressure is now making Flashman and
Ossie to wake up to the elite greedy pigs Tax loopholes which deny our nation it`s contribution
to the Treasury need to be closed.
It is now accepted by responsible,responsive,rational people that Tax avoidance is in need of
legislation because Tax Avoidance not only needs regulations to be changed but it also needs
a total`Culture` change.
Culture is prerequisite for a civilised society......
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Tom, I have no idea what you're on about.
Reg, the only way you'll ever end tax avoidance is employing a Stasi type brigade that snoops on small businesses such as cafes, plumbers, window cleaners and builders.
Is that really what you want?
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
David - yes he does. The philosophy he seems to promote is government is always right and that we should all meet whatever demands it places on we serfs.
If we have freedom under the law then it means that we have the freedom to ensure that we only pay whatever taxes we have to by law and to use legal means to avoid what we can.
Incidentally - cash-in-hand where it is undeclared is evasion and is illegal anyway. We do need to be careful not to excuse what can and is done illegally with what is done legally. I would not encourage evasion.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Yes Barry but as I've said on here before we are all involved to some extent
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
# 1588....unacceptable `clairvoyant`........ ``spherical objects``........
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
So Reg - specifically what do you disagree with and explain why. Lets have a proper discussion rather than your monosybalic outbursts. I am sure that you can express a view coherently. Try it for a change.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, if people avoid tax, albeit legally, it means the State must increase taxation to make good the missing tax.
Or the State must sell more bonds and gilts to make good the missing tax, and thereby increase the Budget Deficit and consequently the National Debt and the interest we all pay on it.
Or the Bank of England is given instructions by the Chancellor to print more digital money to make good the missing tax revenues, which eventually could lead to an implosion of all things paper in the economy, as they become more and more worthless.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Alex, here's a thought, why don't they just spend less?
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
it is a never ending argument whether make greater efforts to collect tax or to cut public spending.
best left to barry and alex who have read more about it than i have.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Its not either or Howard its both, cut tax and public spending.
Govt wastes money, people spend it in shops, on holidays and cars, the economy gets moving and we enjoy life.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
not the point i was making david, alex and his supporters urge the chancellor to collect all tax that is currently avoided.
another point is that cutting benefits as part of a spending review hurts the economy in general.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
David, a good read would be the economic system of Ancient Athens and how it evolved, including trade with the Athenian "Empire" (allied states in Greece). non allied states in Greece and with other states in general.
They never had a Public Debt. There are various good texts on this issue, also available on internet free of charge.
Unless we understand that all the ideas of cutting tax are not practical UNLESS we first affront the Public Debt issue, and the interest we all pay on it, we will not achieve any economic success as a Nation.
Your idea of reducing tax is fundamentally right, but in the present situation we are in, it is not possible.
Else Britain would have to default on the Public Debt repayments (plus interest).
Take a look at modern Greece, which has a debt-based economic system like ours and that of many other countries.
It is KO. Unlike that of Ancient Athens, and indeed many other Greek states, which flourished for centuries.
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Alex, if you cut income tax people have money to spend, this gives the economy a lift and creates jobs, real jobs not 5 a day coordinators. This increases the tax take, as well as increasing the profits that firms make which increases the tax take.
Govt wastes £billions, give people money in their pocket and we'll trade our way out of trouble
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
The State is a burden carried by the private sector and is far too large. Taking more of people's income and capital away in tax does nothing to reduce the intolerable burden that is so damaging to the economy. It makes life even harder for the private sector to grow and prosper.
We need constitutional limits to state spending and borrowing as a proportion of GDP. Link the two and keep the burden down to 30% or less of the economy. Then to grow public spending you first have to grow the economy to pay for it. That is a more sustainable way forward.
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
1590/91 - Barry, Reg was not being monosyllabic. He didn't say Balls.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson