Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Try reading what I said Keith and stop saying the same thing over and over again regardless of the facts.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
BarryW.
"Avoidance is what we all do, perfectly legally, avoiding paying more tax than we need to. If you do not ensure you are not paying unnecessary tax then more fool you"
Evasion is the illegal bit and it is not just the rich and wealthy, undeclared cash jobs, undeclared tips. Undeclared rent income also is not just for the wealthy or well off.
No one can disagree with both of your statements above and no one can disagree that evasion needs stamping out.
I can even agree that no one should pay more tax than they need to and that the tax system should be made far simpler.
However, you are happy to go along with, use and even profit, out of the 'avoidance route'
No one can say that is illegal but I am perfectly entitled to dislike it and want this and any other government, to plug these loopholes.
You are also correct to say that services such as you give are in place for everyone.
However, it is not true that everyone can take advantage of your services. Many simply don't know about them, cannot afford them or do not have it within them to seek you out and some even see paying their tax as their duty.
Also there is a vast difference in the reasons why a wealthy person wants to avoid Tax and a pensioner trying to survive, needs to avoid Tax.
Evasion is the same, it is all wrong but the reasons are far ranging.
You cannot compare the evasion by a single, already wealthy person, amounting to £millions against a waitress struggling to survive by keeping her tips.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
So where do you draw the line Gary?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
at the bottom david.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
difficult to know where to draw a line but if i was in charge of tax gathering i would give the waitress, barperson. car washer etc a wide berth and aim for the big money. why should tax payers money be wasted on getting civil servants clawing back small change?
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
In theory Howard I'm with you.
Lets imagine somebody is lucky enough to earn £1m this year, he'll pay £500000 + in tax and NI. I always chuckle when people moan that they're not paying their fair share.
Guest 671- Registered: 4 May 2008
- Posts: 2,095
David.
#2186
I totally agree with you and I keep saying that I have no problem with wealth or profit and regardless of what others think, that is a fact about me.
My problem is, if that same person earns £1m and ends up paying no tax at all because of these legal loopholes then I feel I have the right to moan that he is not paying his fair share.
#2183.
The line has already been drawn by this and previous governments and that is to hit the poor and vulnerable, that they think will not fight back or at least gives them the easier of the two options.
The other option being to hit big business, bankers and government backers etc, who will withdraw their support.
It is no longer about what is right for this country or representing everyone in this country, it's all about one government surviving its term of office and trying to get re-elected to the next.
That's why so many people, including me, are sick to death of politics.
"My New Year's Resolution, is to try and emulate Marek's level of chilled out, thoughtfulness and humour towards other forumites and not lose my decorum"
Guest 714- Registered: 14 Apr 2011
- Posts: 2,594
Amen to your last lines Gary, I honestly believe 99% of us want more or less the same thing, but political point scoring by egotists gets in the way.
Guest 710- Registered: 28 Feb 2011
- Posts: 6,950
Might is be at all possible for 'us' to consider specifying 'Party Politics' rather than, what may be simple habit, 'Politics'.?
As you each may be aware I prefer to think of Politics as being something in which we all can play a crucially important role.
Pretty please, and thank you.
Ignorance is bliss, bliss is happiness, I am happy...to draw your attention to the possible connectivity in the foregoing.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
GaryC #2182
I am glad to see there is much we can agree on and that is a good post. I do need however to follow up on some points you made.
First of all I 'go along with and even profit from' advising people on tax avoidance - that is quite true but there is more to it than that. I actually have obligations to do this, if I did not do so then I would be in breach of my duty of care to clients, I would also be in trouble with the financial service regulator for not applying 'due skill and diligence'. It is a fundamental part of investment and other financial advice to ensure that clients are properly advised to take advantage of all available tax breaks and where I see inefficient or inappropriate tax planning to advise them and save them overpaid tax. I am good at it and I am very proud of all the tax I save my clients as well as the broad range of services I provide.
Another part you referred to was to draw distinctions between a waitress with tips and someone who is wealthy. Both are equal under law and the difference is only one of scale. If either of them evade tax and break the law they deserve to go down for it but also they both have many tax avoidance opportunities and both have the right to take advantage of them to the extent that their resources dictate. Again the difference is a matter of scale but both are subject to law and the law is subject to rule by consent, the government is not our master and must not be allowed (or anyone else) to blackmail people into forgoing more of their income in tax than is required by parliament.
You are correct that a lot of people lack the knowledge to enable them to benefit from the options available. There is clearly an education issue but this is another situation where our overly complex tax system is unfair and wrong. Lower simple taxes, as I regularly advocate, are the best way to address any anomalies and to make tax fairer than building even more complexity into our already over complex system. High marginal tax rates do not mean more tax being collected.
You then refer to the elderly person who cannot afford my services. The fact is that I provide an hour free and those who really can't afford me can usually learn what they need in that hour. Those who can afford my services will benefit by more than what they pay me either in the immediate short term or in the long term. I have also been known to do a spot of 'pro-bono' for some people who fall in between or to offer a special rate where appropriate.
Incidentally - do not assume that it is expensive to get professional advice. At the Basic level anyone who can afford £21 pm (plus VAT) can afford to engage my services.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Well said garyc
Gives the alternative view
from the coal face as they say
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
There is also a huge difference between the ethical services provided by Barry and the labyrinthine artificial structures dreamed up by lawyers and accountants in the tax havens. They do not get paid by the hour, they are rewarded by a percentage of the amount saved, and they are not subject to detailed regulation and supervision as Barry is.
From that point of view there is a huge difference between what Barry's clients are, and Reg's EGP's.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
These afe the ones who's legs will get chopped off by lower simple flat taxes.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
afe barryw???
the story will run and run
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Brian Dixon- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Lagarde MD of IMF uses her speech to Davos World Economic Forum to attack the gap between the rich and poor.
She told the audience Bankers pay had to be cut to close the gap between the rich and poor as the
excessive inequality is corrosive to economic growth and corrosive to society.
She added a warning that the necessary reforms of the multinational Banking sector,which
plunged the western world into recession in 2008 / 9 was watered down by Industrial Lobbying.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
So thats another one telling the mouse
its not healthy
not fair,
its unjust
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
