Guest 1735- Registered: 26 Apr 2016
- Posts: 90
And i ve been told that at least 3 town cllrs could not be bothered to attend Remembrance sunday can anyone explain why ?,I see one has posted on here maybe she can explain where she was on the morning she should have been remembering the fallen
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Guest 1862- Registered: 23 Sep 2016
- Posts: 163
Well, posts on this forum are certainly revealing. I can't comment on some as I was elsewhere, paying my respects to my husband and many of his men elsewhere. I can however say that many towns abroad do display their patriotism especially on Remembrance occasions. Emotions are very personal but no single person or organisation has the moral right to dictate how they should be displayed or indeed how they are controlled. Wreaths are an expression of many emotions, grief, pride, gratitude, sorrow, pain and above all love. Surely, lessons can be learned from the military about incidents like this. There is a protocol about wreaths on every military Base. Dover, known for its military history could surely consult with any ranking officer to get assistance and then implement the advice given? It's not rocket science. When hon
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Sue Nicholas- Location: river
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 6,025
How sad that certain people post with what can only be described as anger in their hearts. For some time the Rememberance Service at Dover has brought out the worst in some people.I found that the poppy wreaths are very light a slight gust of wind and they easily get blown.At the Dover Patrol as you lay the wreath you have to secure it with a stone.The one year I layed a wreath at Dovers Memorial I had stones placed inside to anchor it down.Having a wreath blown away at Walmer Green I was always aware how light the wreaths are.The Dover Memorial is very exposed unlike some I our district.Here in River the wreaths are fixed with a hook to a wire.
I think the gales were announced in good time and precaution was taken.Think how dangerous it would have been if wreaths had blown into the road or on the foot ways.
The Act of Remberance has taken place and if you really want to remember those who fought and died for their country then learn to live peacefully with one another not score points as to who or not attened the service
Personally I think the field of poppies leading up to the Sunday always look lovely around the memorial.Well done to those who arrange this.
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Guest 1862- Registered: 23 Sep 2016
- Posts: 163
So sorry for interruption. WiFi failure. When honouring the military, follow military guide lines, not rules set by employees of a town who likely have no military connections or knowledge. Others, like the civilians who are honoured, lost their life, due, mainly, to military action so they would be equally treated and at the same standard. Once rules of conduct are established, make them known and all are then free to partake or not, as the case may be. But a set and fast rule should be in place for removal of wreaths and this catastrophic display can never be repeated. Twice, I fear, is once too many already. Apologies if a response is required soon as I now have other commitments but happy to explain further if requested to do so later in the day.
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Reginald Barrington
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,259
Advise from the War Memorials Trust on when to remove wreaths:
"As with many other practices involving war memorials, there are no rules which state when wreaths should be removed from a memorial. Therefore, this is something which needs to be decided by the owner or custodian of the memorial following consultation with the local community. The Trust recommends that a policy is put in place by the custodian which details when the wreaths will be removed so that everyone is aware of when this will take place, and to ensure consistency in the future.
Some people may be upset by wreaths being removed what they consider prematurely, whereas others may be concerned that wreaths have been left for too long. If wreaths are left in place for a long time they can begin to deteriorate which can lead to the memorial appearing as though it is not looked after and this can cause distress. Furthermore, wreaths which are left directly on the stone for prolonged periods, particularly in wet weather, can cause staining on the stone from either the wreaths themselves or from any metal ties in them, which can be difficult to remove.
The Trust recommends that the person or organisation that has responsibility for removing the wreaths from the memorial undertakes consultation with the local community and any other interested parties, such as veterans’ organisations, to agree an appropriate timeframe to remove wreaths. Once this has been agreed it should be publicised in a suitable public place such as the council’s website, a village notice board or on the order of service for the ceremony."
Perhaps our Town council could set a fixed date for removal in future to end this continued bitterness?
Personally I think following the example set at the Cenotaph.
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Arte et Marte
Guest 1862- Registered: 23 Sep 2016
- Posts: 163
Good morning. I contacted the Chair of County RBL again to discuss wreaths and the upset caused by removal of same. The gentleman is in charge of 72 branches and, therefor extremely busy. We discussed various possibilities, settling on an idea I put forward; a set agreed time for poppies to be displayed respectfully by memorials in a secured manner. This can be achieved unobtrusively as demonstrated in many nearby towns. Those who placed wreaths, knowing the cut off date, to collect their wreaths on a date ( likely 2 days) at a time ( likely a full working day) if they so wish, to either re use or place on a grave for example. Those re using the wreath could, if they so wish, make a donation of equal or part value of a new wreath, to a military charity like, for example, Homeless Veterans. The gentleman will contact all his 72 branches to get their feed back. If positive, it might go further afield.
The idea, obviously in its infancy, might bring an end to the repeated distress. Once boundaries are set, people tend to feel happier, knowing what to expect. It was agreed that it is uncertainty and hasty decisions made by those not qualified to act on behalf of a representative group, who cause upset and unnecessary malease. Securing the wreaths as from day one, once the crouds have dispersed will be advised. This then leaves 2 options, if it's voted through, it's either agreed or not, but the public will be informed and there will be little doubt who to contact if matters go wrong again. Hope this is a clear explanation of what is being aimed for but it is not as yet certain by any means. Both the gentleman and I are very clear about one thing, this should never happen again, apologies should be forthcoming from all concerned, not just the persons who collected the wreaths and displayed their disposal extremely insensitively but all who could and should have done more. If 2018 is to be a year to honour and remember, let it be remembered in the best possible way. Lessons should be learned from this appallingly disrespectful way of handling people's emotions and let's not forget, a towns' reputation. I spent most of the day yesterday, discussing this particular incident with my husband's former fellow officers; they contacted me. Believe me when I say that the incredulity and absolute anger caused by this fiasco is mentioned in just about every officers' mess up and down the country. So having given my word that a resolution would be aimed for, the lengthy meeting with the County chair of RBL will hopefully go some way towards that.
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Guest 1338- Registered: 9 Sep 2014
- Posts: 79
Thankyou Anna Liesens for your suggestion, it sounds exactly what is required & I would hope to see it next year. I was upset last year & complained but couldn't get anything done. I would be happy to help in any way, Dover people deserve to have their war dead remembered with respect, my Dad would have been extremely upset by the past 2 years.
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Guest 1767- Registered: 1 Jun 2016
- Posts: 49
Wow, Anna Liesens, you certainly have been doing your homework, and perhaps together with ALL concerned with the RBL and the Town Council, I truly hope the previous fiascos and disrespect can be eliminated and in the years to come, everyone can honour those lost in Service can be remembered peacefully and given the respect they so deserve.
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Guest 1923- Registered: 23 Nov 2016
- Posts: 3
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Excellent post MMM the faux angry brigade are there at every wreath laying for their own reasons.
How dare you disrespect wreath laying. Lets just say I have a family member who also placed a wreath on remembrance Sunday. She was heartbroken when the family wreath was placed in a bin liner after a short nine days. You have insulted the very people mourning their loved ones. I was also on the white cliffs TRBL white cliffs page and read a comment from a member to a lady called Carly Morris regarding how she was a once a year person this only indicates to me the RBL of Dover are out of touch with the community's feelings when it comes remembering Dovers war hero's . I think you need to take a long hard look at yourself you are certainly not fit for purpose and an insult to all of our forces . In Walton you have had riots over this la.
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howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Perhaps the angry brigade that hide behind pseudonyms and post almost in unison might like to read post 23 and then discover what Remembrance Sunday is all about?
Guest 1862- Registered: 23 Sep 2016
- Posts: 163
Howard, have you ever served in the forces? Have you had somebody killed in action but don't know exactly what day or on what part of a battle ground they fell, wondered if they are still under soil in that battle field or if they lie in an unmarked grave ? Would you, do you think, last 2 minutes with comments like the" angry brigade", whomever they are, if you were stood next to a soldier and walk away with quite the hearrtless attitude you display? Who are you by the way, to set yourself up as judge, jury and referee on the feelings and expressions of others when you so readily take advantage of freedom of speech to insult, insinuate and belittle? Please do enlighten us with your personal tales of bravery. Or better still, shall we meet up with a number of my belated husband's officers in arms so you can display your sarcasm to their face and to mine? I am happy to escorts you into the New College at Sandhurst and provide you with a whole platoon of avid listeners. Let's set a date and time. I will give you 24 hrs to inform me of your decision and one of us can then apologise to those attending your address or on here.
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Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
a susgestion,all partys to join the local rbl.
Guest 1923- Registered: 23 Nov 2016
- Posts: 3
howard mcsweeney1 wrote:Perhaps the angry brigade that hide behind pseudonyms and post almost in unison might like to read post 23 and then discover what Remembrance Sunday is all about?
Howard mcsweeny Your comments are the views of a fool . You sit back and wait for people to bite. I suggest you seek treatment for your body poisoning. Because if you lick the boots of the DTC any longer you will end up with cherry blossom poisoning.
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Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
It appears from the local papers that all the arguments above have been thrown at the wrong people and it appears that a volunteer(with good intentions) from the RBL was the one to remove the wreaths.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Reginald Barrington- Location: Dover
- Registered: 17 Dec 2014
- Posts: 3,259
One of the deleted posts did say about the over enthusiastic volunteer Keith but the thread makes no longer makes any sense!
Arte et Marte
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
Reginald local papers have reports from RBL who say a volunteer took it on his own back(with good intention) and the RBL apologised
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Ross Miller
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 17 Sep 2008
- Posts: 3,707
Ah in our new post-truth age why let the facts get in the way of pandering to the need to target our opprobrium at the ones we dislike?
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"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today." - James Dean
"Being deeply loved by someone gives you strength,
While loving someone deeply gives you courage" - Laozi
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
Anna you do not know the the unfortunate recent history of Remembrance Sunday in Dover as you have only recently moved here. In the last few years the "angry brigade" which all but one hide behind pseudonyms have used the day and the build up to it to settle scores with people usually from the Town Council. The front page of the Express a while back showed a photo from Phil Medgett of the service of someone staring at the Mayor of the time headed "if looks could kill", says rather a lot really.. On this thread it has been said that 3 town councillors "couldn't be bothered to attend" so someone must have gone the hundreds milling around picking out 15 faces who were there!!
The good news is that the vast majority of Dover people do not have any agenda and simply turn up whatever the weather each year to remember the fallen.
Terry Nunn
- Location: London Road, Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 4,316
Beth Robson writing in the Mercury tells us that there were three calls from "seething residents including Cllr Augusta Pearson"!!!
Oh dear!
Terry
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Guest 1862- Registered: 23 Sep 2016
- Posts: 163
Thank you for the information. The last post will support my point, newspapers can't be relied upon to get the facts! Having contacted the secretary of the local RBL branch, it appears that if the right questions had been asked, the report would have reflected something nearer to reality. An arrangement had been made to remove the crosses from the memorial garden on the day the wreaths were removed. This had been set at the time the field of Remembrance was being constructed by the same volunteers who removed the wreaths. Further to meeting with the Town Clerk, on the day of removal of crosses, he was reminded of health and safety . He reacted, without further consultation to those he is answerable to and removed all wreaths but left the cut flowers. This does not take away the fact that there were serious oversights of protocol and simple courtesy. An agreement had been made last year to return wreaths to at least some residents, that was blatantly ignored. In relation to the mention of Cllrs missing; if they do the job as Mr Sansum says he will do, their absence is noticed. As with everything else, some draw attention to themselves for the work they do, others for the lack of it. As is mentioned, there is a set number of Cllrs. Not too exhausting, one would have thought, to check names, if the reporter has no direct knowledge of their names. In relation to " if looks could kill" I presume that again was said by a reporter? Sensationalism to promote sales, no more. The RBL secretary took it upon himself to donate a wreath to a family that had been promised their wreath would be returned, paying for it himself. He certainly sounded like a genuine gentleman who expressed his distress at the way 2 members of the group had reacted to suggestions by another. Personally I hoped the person responsible would have had the alleged courage attributed to veterans to make a personal apology. Sadly, that was not forthcoming. It leaves many bridges to be built. Shame also that the "advice" re health and safety was not owned up to. So my conclusion is that the town clerk at least wanted the field of Remembrance cleared in an inappropriate time. Presuming she works under and according to the direction of the Cllrs, I would say that equal lack of respect and protocol was shown on both sides.