Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
The tory rebels have formed the 81 group with connections to the 1922 committee to tell Flashman `If greeks can have a referendem why can`t we``
They had their first meeting yesterday and decided to be a ``Bottom Up`` organisation.
Mr Pritchard MP secretary of 1922 committee says Government will not kick repatriation powers into the elephant grass.
Any long grass will be mowed down!!
Nadine Dorries MP.says more rebellions can be expected.It is thought the group will swell to over 100 soon.
However they say they do not want to leave Europe!!!!!
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Don't get too excited Reg. These MPs represent the mainstream and will eventually lead to us getting out of the EU madhouse. Of course they will say they 'don't want to leave Europe', they really must not 'scare the horses'.
The real debate, the constructive debate, is one on what a renegotiation will include. Such a renegotiation will take place eventually and we need to build a shopping list. As I have said, my own shopping list and that of an increasing number of Conservatives, will include a fundamentally new relationship that will leave us outside the EU structures and in a Swiss like arrangement. That is one that can be sold with enthusiasm to voters rather the the leap into the unknown of a in/out vote.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Please dream on.
Are we really saying the 81 group are now joining Flashman and Ollies Fork tongue group? Yet another group growing by the day!
Guest 698- Registered: 28 May 2010
- Posts: 8,664
We should be in a Common European Market which does not prohibit us joining other trade blocs like NAFTA and the Commonwealth. As Charlie Elphicke stressed last week, why should we tolerate the intrusion and cost of the tentacles of the octopus that the EU has become.
I'm an optimist. But I'm an optimist who takes my raincoat - Harold Wilson
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Utopia ? .............Peter.
When you join a club and try to change the rules and regulations you expose yourself to resistance from the body of the group.
Stalemate results in you playing your golf elsewhere.
We need to be in Europe.............Europe does not need a member who continually throws their toys out of the pram.
Democracy is sometimes uncomfortable!.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
We are in Europe and being outside the structure of the EU does not change that. We do not need their rules, their interference, their corruption and their inefficiency. What we need is the trade and we can do far better as an EFTA member than as an EU member.
howard mcsweeney1- Location: Dover
- Registered: 12 Mar 2008
- Posts: 62,352
reg
the problem is not one of democracy, most of the dictates are from unelected officials.
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Just like Dover District Council......................Do we accept that as democracy?
Brian Dixon
- Location: Dover
- Registered: 23 Sep 2008
- Posts: 23,940
well spoted reg.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
The idea of a referendum to renegotiate is rubbish.
How can the People vote to renegotiate EU membership when they wouldn't have a clue which negotiations would be taking place and what outcome would be reached on such talks after a referendum?
The obvious idea is to have a referendum to stay in or leave the EU. If the People vote to leave, only then could negotiations take place to redefine economic trade agreements with the EU.
In this case, the EU would not be dictating anything, but would be an organisation establishing new trading links with a sovereign Country called Britain.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
People do not vote to renegotiate, people vote on the outcome of renegotiations. The aim of the settlement I want would leave us out of the EU.
Keith Sansum1
- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
There are a lot of dreamers out there,
barryw's dave has made it clear he has no intention of leaving the E.U.
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Exactly, Barry, people cannot vote on renegotiating before the negotiations take place.
And negotiations between two states cannot happen unless between two sovereign Governments: the British and the EU.
So, first we need a referendum on either being in or out of the EU, then need to leave the European state, then need to start trading negotiations with two sovereign parties at the table.
As long as we are in the EU, nothing will ever be renegotiated, as the top EU officials and the leaders of the pro-EU countries will never agree to allow one country to rock the boat.
They would prefer if we simply had a referendum, made our exit, and left them in peace, and traded with them as Norway does.
At that point, I would not bang on at the EU, because the masses of people in the European EU countries want to remain part of it, and it is their right to do so.
The majority of British people don't want to remain part, so my slogan is that we should have our say, with a yes or a no vote.
And once out, NOT bang on at the EU, but trade with them as between two sovereign entities.
All what you propose regards the EU, Barry, is rocking the whole boat for 27 countries.
I say, let THEM have what THEY prefer, and not try to upset THEIR applecart. It's their business.
We have enough of our own to sort out.
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Alex the referendum you want is mad and would play into the hands of the pro-EU lobby. I keep telling you that and why it is - will that never sink in? Give people an in/out vote and they will not vote out and for a leap into the unknown. The EU lobby will simply scare them into supporting the status quo and the LibDems know this, they will win such a vote and we will be locked into the EU and the government will not have a negotiating leg to stand on. Bonkers.
Keith - you should know enough about politics to see through that.
Keith Sansum1- Location: london
- Registered: 25 Aug 2010
- Posts: 23,942
barryw
I see through it ok, your dave has made it clear to your party he has no intention of leaving the E.U. under his watch
can't be any clearer than that
ALL POSTS ARE MY OWN PERSONAL VIEWS
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
Barry, the Tories have lost the EU referendum campaign, Dave chose the EU and a nice life with the LibDems
Guest 655- Registered: 13 Mar 2008
- Posts: 10,247
Keith - it will not happen while we are in coalition but there will be a very different game with a Conservative majority. Renegotiation of our relationship with the EU will be unstoppable and that may well result in our way out. Those Conservative MPs who remain Euro-enthusiasts are a mere handful and will be even fewer after the next election specially with a Conservative majority. While in coalition DC will play the coalition game as he should.
Alex I don't think you actually know what is going on at all...
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Merkle and Sarkosy`s warning to the Greeks.
``If you don`t accept the rules and regulations of Europe get out``
Will send ripples,of different reactions,through the Coalition.
When the mood and intent of this warning has sunk in the Coalition will be split on the 81 group`s demand to renegotiate terms.
Flashman has to come clean sometime soon.
Guest 696- Registered: 31 Mar 2010
- Posts: 8,115
That is exactly what I have been explaining, Reg. The EU would rather have us out than renegotiate anything.
They have invested too much in the EU to see its rules being changed by us Islanders.
Barry, when will you recognise this? Forget renegotiating and let the Europeans be. An independent Britain that trades with the European state and doesn't interfere with the European state's internal affairs is what the Europeans want, now that they have realised that Dave has lost enormously on popularity at home for refusing an EU referendum.
If you really think the EU will sit down and let 27 countries start sounding off each on an individual bar, each trying to sing their own song, orchestrated by Dave, then you must be dreaming
Europe respects our Sovereignty and we respect theirs, that's what it will be. Two sovereign entities.
What you suggest is nothing less than a Trojan horse inside the EU, but in Europe they have already seen through Dave's plans.
Meanwhile at home his popularity has plunged.
His only hope of being PM is to be nice to the LibDems
Guest 716- Registered: 9 Jun 2011
- Posts: 4,010
Next major problem for our Coalition Government is the British contribution to the Eurozone bailout given indirectly to the IMF.
The reaction/action to this by the 81 Group ad other back bench MP`s.
Cameron expects back bench Uproar.